Failed attack rolls

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The problem with "swing and miss" is that it's hard to do.* Yes, a person can do it, but most swings don't miss. It's very weird to imagine people are swooshing weapons around every second and missing all the time. It's much more like a real fight if they're only seeing and/or capitalizing on openings every few seconds. Save swooshing for critical failures. It creates no inconsistency with the rules to assume this:

• Attack, critical miss: Swooshed clumsily, with bad results for you.
  
• Attack, miss: Simply didn't act, for want of initiative or an opening.
• Attack, hit, defended: Blow hit enemy's shield or weapon (block or armed parry), connected lightly but ineffectually (unarmed parry), or was ducked or sidestepped (dodge).
  
• Attack, hit, not defended: Blow arrived faster than enemy's reaction, and hit squarely.
• Attack, critical hit: Blow caught enemy flat-footed – they simply didn't act.

—

* One of the most common criticisms of GURPS is in the vein of, "Gee, how can an ordinary person swing a baseball bat at someone's head and miss? But that's what happens with -5 for the default penalty and -5 for the head, even with the +4 for Telegraphic Attack!" The obvious answer is, "They didn't swing."

For me I see the distinction between the two as being in a combat where all combatants are moving about (even if not by enough to qualify as a hex's worth of movement) so targets can end up not being where the attacker lined their attack up to hit, without their target having to specifically devote* in GURPS terms a defence to block, parry or dodge to the attack. And a better attacker is just better at making their attacks while taking the general movement on both sides of the combat into consideration. On top of that combat is a balance between attack and defence, it is harder to hit when you are splitting your attention to defending in coming stuff as well. And GURPS give's a hefty bonuses to hit when you don't (or even just prioritize attack over defence, e,g committed attack).

There are far too many implications for a missed attack not being an actual executed attempt at an attack EDIT: as T-bone says below this is a matter of my personal opinion not objective fact and me saying rahh you are wrong!

Put it this way when it comes to missile combat where increased range increased difficulty in hitting I'm guessing you don't have missing just be not attacking/firing?

Now when people say "why is it so hard to shoot people in GURPS when I can do much better on the range at home", the answer is generally "well things are harder in combat than in non combat, combat is a confusing, stressful mess of conflicting desires and things. That's why we have non combat bonuses to make doing this in out of combat situations easier". I see no reason why that rationale doesn't work for melee or unarmed combat as well.


On the swinging baseball bat's at the head, point, I take the point. However I'd argue a better way to tackle that is to look closely at the -5 for people without combat skills to swing baseball bats around assuming they have at some point in their previous life swung baseball bats around.


The more I think about it is things like the default rule that is the issue, not how had it is to hit people


*although there's a point about declaring a defence before or after knowing if an attack is on target (but maybe best not to get into that now!)

Originally Posted by Ronnke

In this case would an unbalanced weapon still become unready?

Good point, (allothough 0U weapons don't unready after an attack, they just can't attack and parry in the same 1 sec turn but same point applies), but you are right should a weapon that unreadies after an attack be unready if the attack never took place?

[Daigoro]

What about for All-Out Attack (Extra Attack), Move and Attack or Wild Swing? Are they also do nothing, or would they actually be swings and misses?

ETA: And possibly venturing into "just check the rules" territory, but what about charged attacks, like Power Blow, Breaking Blow or Imbuements? Do they dispel their charge on a miss? A do nothing would imply "no," but a swing and miss would imply "yes."

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Attack, miss: Simply didn't act, for want of initiative or an opening.

"Didn't act" has mechanical consequences that make this not really work (as discussed). But if instead you said it was a sloppy/ineffectual/half-hearted attack that had no chance of dealing damage (for the same reasons) it works a little better—you certainly see that in real fights. But then you'd have the question of the mechanical consequence of it maybe counting as "contact."

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by JazzJedi

This seems problematic for a variety of reasons. The ability to capitalize on openings seems a separate skill than hitting - a skilled Mixed Martial Artist with Boxing-15, Karate-15, Judo-15, Wrestling-15 would be very good at timing openings against an average (say skill 10 or 11) opponent. But you give them a baseball bat, assuming they don't train to fight with a bat (skill at default), and suddenly they lose their ability to judge distance and openings? Assume that character had DX 12 and Broadsword-7. A skill of 7 would mean they would be worse at judging timing and openings than a weakly skilled amateur with DX 10 and 1 point in Broadsword. How does that make any sense?

Judging timing and openings with a weapon is as much about experience "skill" with the weapon than raw had/eye coordination and speed (or whatever DX represents). So I got no problem with Weapon skill and Underlying raw ability (Stat) being equal in value here. But some lessons are universal whether you swing a sword or your fist.

But I'd argue that it's more a problem with whopping great -5 default* without having spent CP, which by RAW has a DX12 +3 Karate MMAist dropping from a 95% chance of hitting (all else being equal) to a 16% of hitting if they pick up a baseball bat without studying what ever weapon skill the baseball bat is being used with.


Could just be matter of tinkering with the Default system allowing more combat skills to default to each other but with hefty penalties. Might get balancing issue though as 'one skill wonders' will see a boost!


(I can't remember do relevant sports skills give a better combat default when bats etc are swung at people in earnest? I think GURPS Zombies referenced this?)


*especially when it often applies around the middle of the bell curve!

[tbone]

My objection* to "a miss means you didn't act" is that it is inconsistent with some game effects.

You didn't act... but the rules dictate that your mace is now unable to parry, and your greataxe flat-out can't do anything without a Ready. Your kick didn't happen... yet you fall down from having "missed". Weird things happen with combinations (from MA; granted, they're an optional rule). And if the discussion also addresses ranged weapons (and if it doesn't, that's fair enough), the act of not acting somehow leaves you short an arrow or a javelin.
I expect that some searching would turn up similar cases, in which rules dictate that a miss carries distinct consequences of actually being a miss. (Any sort of "charged blow", like Daigoro mentions, would be a good example.)

*Where "objection" means "I personally don't care for it", and not "It's bad / dumb / 'you're playing it wrong'" or anything like that. The issue's not remotely a game-breaker; I've just never really understood the "miss = you didn't act" concept.

Originally Posted by Kromm

* One of the most common criticisms of GURPS is in the vein of, "Gee, how can an ordinary person swing a baseball bat at someone's head and miss? But that's what happens with -5 for the default penalty and -5 for the head, even with the +4 for Telegraphic Attack!" The obvious answer is, "They didn't swing."

To me, the answer seems to lie elsewhere. Starting with -5 TH for the head... I get that it's a long-ingrained given of the game, and that making the head an easy target is going to have some pretty serious game effects... but treating a head as a smaller target than a fist is pretty odd from a reality perspective, so some odd results are inevitable.

Then there's that default penalty. Again, I don't want to start a complaint thread about some little thing, and I can't say what the untrained penalty to swing a baseball bat should be... but more and more, the game's usual -5 penalty for default weapon use just feels huge to me.

Finally, shouldn't this low-skill attacker be using AOA (Determined)? If he's carefully checking his swing, making sure that bat is ready to parry in an instant if needed... well, yeah, I think missing is quite in order if the guy's holding back like that. Toss in the +4 for a proper AOA, and he'll start getting in some hits. (Especially if that head penalty and default skill penalty were only, say, -3 each... but I know, the mods are what they are, so we'll set that aside.)

Anyway. No argument with those who like to creatively interpret a miss as a do-nothing, but FWIW, I like a nice, clean interpretation: "A miss is a miss, and consequences apply as written. For simplicity, the matter of hesitating instead of attacking isn't addressed. Now go forth and pummel."

(For anyone who does want to explicitly introduce hesitations in GURPS combat – and I'm not imagining there's a great demand for it – here's a house rule you can play with: http://www.gamesdiner.com/rules-nugget-gurps-whats-miss )

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by tbone

...

To me, the answer seems to lie elsewhere. Starting with -5 TH for the head... I get that it's a long-ingrained given of the game, and that making the head an easy target is going to have some pretty serious game effects... but treating a head as a smaller target than a fist is pretty odd from a reality perspective, so some odd results are inevitable.

A big factor in how this games out is the skill range for you games as well.

You run your skills in the 12-16 range and -5 to hit heads in combat is a big thing, and you likely have to engineer the situation to do so or take a big risk when attempting it.

You run your skills in the 20-25 range and hitting heads become proportionally less difficult or risky

Of course GURPS has to accommodate both (and if everyone's running around with high skill head hits might be easier in abstract to pull off, but they'll also be easier to defend against as well)

Originally Posted by tbone

Then there's that default penalty. Again, I don't want to start a complaint thread about some little thing, and I can't say what the untrained penalty to swing a baseball bat should be... but more and more, the game's usual -5 penalty for default weapon use just feels huge to me.

yep!

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

What about for All-Out Attack (Extra Attack), Move and Attack or Wild Swing? Are they also do nothing, or would they actually be swings and misses?

ETA: And possibly venturing into "just check the rules" territory, but what about charged attacks, like Power Blow, Breaking Blow or Imbuements? Do they dispel their charge on a miss? A do nothing would imply "no," but a swing and miss would imply "yes."

If I do a flurry of blows and spend FP on each extra attack, do I end up spending FPs on attacks that I don't actually make if I did not successfully make my skill roll?

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by cdru

Pyramid 3-34 got a tweak for hesitating instead of actually missing

Yeah, this seems like the right method, though I'm tempted to throw a minimum-effective-skill-level in there. But if I were implementing this rule, I'd say that a hesitation also avoids the mechanical consequences of an actual swing/throw (except maybe Extra Effort?).

[Black Leviathan]

People miss.

I miss.

Maybe not a lot but if I'm hitting someone who'd rather not be hit I'm lucky to connect more than half of the time. But you miss all of the swings you never take so if I see guard down I try, even if I'm short of the strike.

I also don't always hit well. Sometimes my hit just catches a bit of skirt or the hang of a sleeve. Sometimes my swing grazes along an arm. If I had a real blade on the weapons I spar with there's still further a chance that I'd land blows that didn't dig, maybe they'd bruise someone but if didn't they have a heavy jacket on I may as well have swung wide.

Releasing your dice for an attack is a swing, it is a commitment to hostility just like rolling your dice for Guns is a gunshot and ammo expended regardless of your success. If you're holding your attack waiting for an opportunity then you're Holding your Action. If you're not attacking while you evaluate your opponent you are Evaluating your opponent.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

But if I were implementing this rule, I'd say that a hesitation also avoids the mechanical consequences of an actual swing/throw (except maybe Extra Effort?).

That is indeed the intent of the Pyramid 3-34 rule (which is the same rule I linked to above): Hesitation means no mechanical consequences of the the attack, as no attack happened. No unready weapon, no falling down from a kick, no loosed projectile, etc.

Your mention of Extra Effort is an interesting note. As I wrote the rule, hesitation doesn't happen if you chose All-Out Attack or Committed Attack; those actions are ways of saying "I do not hesitate; I attack." I could see ruling that the same holds for Extra Effort in combat (Flurry of Blows or Mighty Blows): if you declare one of those options, then you attack, period.