11-05-2018, 07:37 AM | #11 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Failed attack rolls
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There are far too many implications for a missed attack not being an actual executed attempt at an attack EDIT: as T-bone says below this is a matter of my personal opinion not objective fact and me saying rahh you are wrong! Put it this way when it comes to missile combat where increased range increased difficulty in hitting I'm guessing you don't have missing just be not attacking/firing? Now when people say "why is it so hard to shoot people in GURPS when I can do much better on the range at home", the answer is generally "well things are harder in combat than in non combat, combat is a confusing, stressful mess of conflicting desires and things. That's why we have non combat bonuses to make doing this in out of combat situations easier". I see no reason why that rationale doesn't work for melee or unarmed combat as well. On the swinging baseball bat's at the head, point, I take the point. However I'd argue a better way to tackle that is to look closely at the -5 for people without combat skills to swing baseball bats around assuming they have at some point in their previous life swung baseball bats around. The more I think about it is things like the default rule that is the issue, not how had it is to hit people *although there's a point about declaring a defence before or after knowing if an attack is on target (but maybe best not to get into that now!) Good point, (allothough 0U weapons don't unready after an attack, they just can't attack and parry in the same 1 sec turn but same point applies), but you are right should a weapon that unreadies after an attack be unready if the attack never took place?
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-05-2018 at 11:33 PM. |
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11-05-2018, 07:38 AM | #12 |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Meifumado
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Re: Failed attack rolls
What about for All-Out Attack (Extra Attack), Move and Attack or Wild Swing? Are they also do nothing, or would they actually be swings and misses?
ETA: And possibly venturing into "just check the rules" territory, but what about charged attacks, like Power Blow, Breaking Blow or Imbuements? Do they dispel their charge on a miss? A do nothing would imply "no," but a swing and miss would imply "yes."
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Collaborative Settings: Cyberpunk: Duopoly Nation Space Opera: Behind the King's Eclipse And heaps of forum collabs, 30+ and counting! Last edited by Daigoro; 11-05-2018 at 07:44 AM. |
11-05-2018, 07:46 AM | #13 |
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oklahoma City
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Re: Failed attack rolls
"Didn't act" has mechanical consequences that make this not really work (as discussed). But if instead you said it was a sloppy/ineffectual/half-hearted attack that had no chance of dealing damage (for the same reasons) it works a little better—you certainly see that in real fights. But then you'd have the question of the mechanical consequence of it maybe counting as "contact."
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The Art of D. Raymond Lunceford, The Daniverse: Core Group Annex The Daniverse Game Blog |
11-05-2018, 08:01 AM | #14 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Failed attack rolls
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But I'd argue that it's more a problem with whopping great -5 default* without having spent CP, which by RAW has a DX12 +3 Karate MMAist dropping from a 95% chance of hitting (all else being equal) to a 16% of hitting if they pick up a baseball bat without studying what ever weapon skill the baseball bat is being used with. Could just be matter of tinkering with the Default system allowing more combat skills to default to each other but with hefty penalties. Might get balancing issue though as 'one skill wonders' will see a boost! (I can't remember do relevant sports skills give a better combat default when bats etc are swung at people in earnest? I think GURPS Zombies referenced this?) *especially when it often applies around the middle of the bell curve!
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-05-2018 at 09:03 AM. |
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11-05-2018, 08:12 AM | #15 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Failed attack rolls
My objection* to "a miss means you didn't act" is that it is inconsistent with some game effects.
You didn't act... but the rules dictate that your mace is now unable to parry, and your greataxe flat-out can't do anything without a Ready. Your kick didn't happen... yet you fall down from having "missed". Weird things happen with combinations (from MA; granted, they're an optional rule). And if the discussion also addresses ranged weapons (and if it doesn't, that's fair enough), the act of not acting somehow leaves you short an arrow or a javelin. I expect that some searching would turn up similar cases, in which rules dictate that a miss carries distinct consequences of actually being a miss. (Any sort of "charged blow", like Daigoro mentions, would be a good example.) *Where "objection" means "I personally don't care for it", and not "It's bad / dumb / 'you're playing it wrong'" or anything like that. The issue's not remotely a game-breaker; I've just never really understood the "miss = you didn't act" concept. Quote:
Then there's that default penalty. Again, I don't want to start a complaint thread about some little thing, and I can't say what the untrained penalty to swing a baseball bat should be... but more and more, the game's usual -5 penalty for default weapon use just feels huge to me. Finally, shouldn't this low-skill attacker be using AOA (Determined)? If he's carefully checking his swing, making sure that bat is ready to parry in an instant if needed... well, yeah, I think missing is quite in order if the guy's holding back like that. Toss in the +4 for a proper AOA, and he'll start getting in some hits. (Especially if that head penalty and default skill penalty were only, say, -3 each... but I know, the mods are what they are, so we'll set that aside.) Anyway. No argument with those who like to creatively interpret a miss as a do-nothing, but FWIW, I like a nice, clean interpretation: "A miss is a miss, and consequences apply as written. For simplicity, the matter of hesitating instead of attacking isn't addressed. Now go forth and pummel." (For anyone who does want to explicitly introduce hesitations in GURPS combat – and I'm not imagining there's a great demand for it – here's a house rule you can play with: http://www.gamesdiner.com/rules-nugget-gurps-whats-miss )
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T Bone GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner: http://www.gamesdiner.com Twitter: @Gamesdiner | RSS: here ⬅︎ Updated RSS link | This forum: Site updates thread (occasionally updated) (Latest goods on site: GLAIVE Mini levels up to v2.4. Update to melee weapon design tool, with more example weapons and commentary.) |
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11-05-2018, 08:22 AM | #16 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Failed attack rolls
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A big factor in how this games out is the skill range for you games as well. You run your skills in the 12-16 range and -5 to hit heads in combat is a big thing, and you likely have to engineer the situation to do so or take a big risk when attempting it. You run your skills in the 20-25 range and hitting heads become proportionally less difficult or risky Of course GURPS has to accommodate both (and if everyone's running around with high skill head hits might be easier in abstract to pull off, but they'll also be easier to defend against as well) Quote:
yep!
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-05-2018 at 08:25 AM. |
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11-05-2018, 08:57 AM | #17 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Failed attack rolls
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course |
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11-05-2018, 09:23 AM | #18 |
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oklahoma City
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Re: Failed attack rolls
Yeah, this seems like the right method, though I'm tempted to throw a minimum-effective-skill-level in there. But if I were implementing this rule, I'd say that a hesitation also avoids the mechanical consequences of an actual swing/throw (except maybe Extra Effort?).
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The Art of D. Raymond Lunceford, The Daniverse: Core Group Annex The Daniverse Game Blog |
11-05-2018, 09:24 AM | #19 |
Join Date: Sep 2018
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Re: Failed attack rolls
People miss.
I miss. Maybe not a lot but if I'm hitting someone who'd rather not be hit I'm lucky to connect more than half of the time. But you miss all of the swings you never take so if I see guard down I try, even if I'm short of the strike. I also don't always hit well. Sometimes my hit just catches a bit of skirt or the hang of a sleeve. Sometimes my swing grazes along an arm. If I had a real blade on the weapons I spar with there's still further a chance that I'd land blows that didn't dig, maybe they'd bruise someone but if didn't they have a heavy jacket on I may as well have swung wide. Releasing your dice for an attack is a swing, it is a commitment to hostility just like rolling your dice for Guns is a gunshot and ammo expended regardless of your success. If you're holding your attack waiting for an opportunity then you're Holding your Action. If you're not attacking while you evaluate your opponent you are Evaluating your opponent. |
11-05-2018, 10:04 AM | #20 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Failed attack rolls
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Your mention of Extra Effort is an interesting note. As I wrote the rule, hesitation doesn't happen if you chose All-Out Attack or Committed Attack; those actions are ways of saying "I do not hesitate; I attack." I could see ruling that the same holds for Extra Effort in combat (Flurry of Blows or Mighty Blows): if you declare one of those options, then you attack, period.
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T Bone GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner: http://www.gamesdiner.com Twitter: @Gamesdiner | RSS: here ⬅︎ Updated RSS link | This forum: Site updates thread (occasionally updated) (Latest goods on site: GLAIVE Mini levels up to v2.4. Update to melee weapon design tool, with more example weapons and commentary.) |
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