Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-14-2018, 11:26 AM   #51
Daigoro
 
Daigoro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Meifumado
Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Navigation

Was someone asking about Middle-earth navigation?

Just found this meaty article sitting in my inbox:
The Dúnedain and the Deep Blue Sea: On Númenórean Navigation
Jonathan Crowe
__________________
Collaborative Settings:
Cyberpunk: Duopoly Nation
Space Opera: Behind the King's Eclipse
And heaps of forum collabs, 30+ and counting!
Daigoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2018, 05:33 PM   #52
Vaevictis Asmadi
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota, U.S.A.
Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Navigation

Ooh, awesome! Thanks Daigoro.
__________________
I have Confused and Clueless. Sometimes I miss sarcasm and humor, or critically fail my Savoir-Faire roll. None of it is intentional.

Published GURPS Settings
(as of 4/2013 -- I hope to update it someday...)
Vaevictis Asmadi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2018, 08:05 PM   #53
Daigoro
 
Daigoro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Meifumado
Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi View Post
Ooh, awesome! Thanks Daigoro.
Thank not me, thank the Maiar of Serendipity.
__________________
Collaborative Settings:
Cyberpunk: Duopoly Nation
Space Opera: Behind the King's Eclipse
And heaps of forum collabs, 30+ and counting!
Daigoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2019, 06:41 PM   #54
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Navigation

It strikes me that the most common use of Navigation in my campaigns is in chase scenes, where the rules (possibly from GURPS Action) call for seperate checks against Driving and the skill used to choose a route, usually either Area Knowledge or Navigation (Land).

Obviously, it is a benefit to have a dedicated navigator rather than a driver who also navigates, if only because of the generic -2 penalty for doing two things at once. That being said, it seems that equipment and workstation should matter a great deal. A map is basic equipment for navigation, but not all action scenes in vehicles offer a plausible way to deploy a map. The driver usually cannot do so at all and a passenger might have major difficulty if the map is larger than the space he has available.

This will hold particularly true on a motorcycle.

I was wondering what fair modifiers were for having access to a map, but little time or space to consult it. Or, alternatively, having studied a map of the operational area for anywhere from a few hours to a few weeks before a mission and trying to navigate by your memory of the map. I would roll an IQ check (if higher, I'd also allow Cartography, Professional Skill (Intelligence Officer) or Tactics to memorize a map) modified by Eidetic or Photographic Memory and use the margin of success to reduce the -10 for not having a map. But what would be a fair base time to study a map before you could roll an unmodified check to memorize it?
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2019, 07:36 PM   #55
Verjigorm
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
It strikes me that the most common use of Navigation in my campaigns is in chase scenes, where the rules (possibly from GURPS Action) call for seperate checks against Driving and the skill used to choose a route, usually either Area Knowledge or Navigation (Land).

Obviously, it is a benefit to have a dedicated navigator rather than a driver who also navigates, if only because of the generic -2 penalty for doing two things at once. That being said, it seems that equipment and workstation should matter a great deal. A map is basic equipment for navigation, but not all action scenes in vehicles offer a plausible way to deploy a map. The driver usually cannot do so at all and a passenger might have major difficulty if the map is larger than the space he has available.

This will hold particularly true on a motorcycle.

I was wondering what fair modifiers were for having access to a map, but little time or space to consult it. Or, alternatively, having studied a map of the operational area for anywhere from a few hours to a few weeks before a mission and trying to navigate by your memory of the map. I would roll an IQ check (if higher, I'd also allow Cartography, Professional Skill (Intelligence Officer) or Tactics to memorize a map) modified by Eidetic or Photographic Memory and use the margin of success to reduce the -10 for not having a map. But what would be a fair base time to study a map before you could roll an unmodified check to memorize it?
30 minutes to an hour. When I first learned to ride a motorized scooter, I had to figure out a route to work that didn't involve the interstate, and I wanted to avoid main and busy roads because I didn't have a license, registration or a tag. So I spent about 30 minutes to an hour studying google maps, plotting my course, and I used good street view to determine landmarks. I still got lost a few times on the way home at night for the first few weeks.

I'd also penalize the "memorized map" depending on what you're trying to do. If you have a clearly defined route, with maybe a few alternates, that may be worth an unpenalized roll. But if you're going to try to figure out new routes on the fly, that's going to be penalized more.

I wouldn't penalize Area Knowledge on the other hand, as I consider it to be the sort of "mental map" of an area.
__________________
Hydration is key
Verjigorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2019, 07:42 PM   #56
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
30 minutes to an hour. When I first learned to ride a motorized scooter, I had to figure out a route to work that didn't involve the interstate, and I wanted to avoid main and busy roads because I didn't have a license, registration or a tag. So I spent about 30 minutes to an hour studying google maps, plotting my course, and I used good street view to determine landmarks. I still got lost a few times on the way home at night for the first few weeks.

I'd also penalize the "memorized map" depending on what you're trying to do. If you have a clearly defined route, with maybe a few alternates, that may be worth an unpenalized roll. But if you're going to try to figure out new routes on the fly, that's going to be penalized more.
Note that I'm talking about how much time you need to study a map of an entire operational area to be able to make an unpenalized IQ + traits that affect memory to memorize it well enough to reduce the penalty from -10 for having no map. Success by 5 would reduce the penalty to -5, for example.

I imagine that normal people generally use x8 to x32 this base time, to get +3 to +5 for Time Spent and therefore having decent odds at reducing the penalty significantly. I suppose an hour sounds workable, meaning that about one working week would give the maximum +5 bonus for Time Spent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
I wouldn't penalize Area Knowledge on the other hand, as I consider it to be the sort of "mental map" of an area.
Agreed and an important benefit of Area Knowledge over Navigation.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2019, 08:16 PM   #57
Verjigorm
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Note that I'm talking about how much time you need to study a map of an entire operational area to be able to make an unpenalized IQ + traits that affect memory to memorize it well enough to reduce the penalty from -10 for having no map. Success by 5 would reduce the penalty to -5, for example.

I imagine that normal people generally use x8 to x32 this base time, to get +3 to +5 for Time Spent and therefore having decent odds at reducing the penalty significantly. I suppose an hour sounds workable, meaning that about one working week would give the maximum +5 bonus for Time Spent.


Agreed and an important benefit of Area Knowledge over Navigation.
I wouldn't allow an penalized IQ roll for this. Maybe if you're just memorizing a specific route, but definitely not to memorize a map. I would, at the least, start with something like a -5 penalty. And I'd apply margin of failure as an additional penalty to not having a map(not only did you NOT remember that road, you imagined you remembered a road that doesn't even exist). I think the size of the area should also be considered.

But I feel like an IQ 12 person with Eidetic Memory(or other traits) is shaving off way too much of the penalty for navigation without a map, and I tink it crowds into Area Knowledge too much.

Hmmm. Maybe it could be handled as a "default" of Area Knowledge.
__________________
Hydration is key
Verjigorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2019, 08:32 PM   #58
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
I wouldn't allow an penalized IQ roll for this. Maybe if you're just memorizing a specific route, but definitely not to memorize a map. I would, at the least, start with something like a -5 penalty. And I'd apply margin of failure as an additional penalty to not having a map(not only did you NOT remember that road, you imagined you remembered a road that doesn't even exist). I think the size of the area should also be considered.

But I feel like an IQ 12 person with Eidetic Memory(or other traits) is shaving off way too much of the penalty for navigation without a map, and I tink it crowds into Area Knowledge too much.
Eidetic Memory is a 5 point Advantage that really doesn't do much other than replace slightly inconvenient storage media.

A 1-2 point Accessory Perk of Computer + Heads-Up Display will canonically allow you to ignore the entire -10 penalty, because you can store the map in your digital device and access it with the HUD. Hell, cash and minimal technical competence at today's TL8 will do the same.

I don't think it's unreasonable that a 5 point Advantage and up to a week of study will allow a character with decent IQ to do this reliably.

Sure, the size of the map ought to matter, but generally, unless the operation or mission is a very complex multi-day affair, I think an hour as the base time to study it seems logical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
Hmmm. Maybe it could be handled as a "default" of Area Knowledge.
So the Navigation skill level would be irrelevant?
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2019, 09:27 PM   #59
Verjigorm
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Eidetic Memory is a 5 point Advantage that really doesn't do much other than replace slightly inconvenient storage media.

A 1-2 point Accessory Perk of Computer + Heads-Up Display will canonically allow you to ignore the entire -10 penalty, because you can store the map in your digital device and access it with the HUD. Hell, cash and minimal technical competence at today's TL8 will do the same.

I don't think it's unreasonable that a 5 point Advantage and up to a week of study will allow a character with decent IQ to do this reliably.

Sure, the size of the map ought to matter, but generally, unless the operation or mission is a very complex multi-day affair, I think an hour as the base time to study it seems logical.
Until it's possible to implant a computer and HUD, having access to those abilities is certainly worth an small unusual background. And you can't take someone's eidetic or photographic memory away from them. You can take their PDA/Smartphone(Or, more importantly, their paper map). If you are knocked overboard without any gear, you get to keep eidetic memory. But with eidetic memory, you automatically succeed at IQ rolls to remember events, or remember if you took a left or a right three intersections back.

Eidetic memory also has a lot of other uses, such as allowing one to memorize accents after an hour of listening to one. Well, to be fair, anyone can do that, but Eidetic memory makes it trivially easy. Which in any sort of environment where you want to blend in, eidetic memory becomes very useful.

Now, I do generally extend the +5/+10 bonus for "learning" to any sort of "remembering" task. So if someone takes you through a labyrinth, for example, someone with EM/PM would have bonus to remember the correct path, while someone without it would not.

Also, "complex" is a relative term. Driving from say, Charlotte NC to Houston Texas isn't really a complex task. But remembering that the road atlas you looked at showed a bypass route to avoid heavy traffic? More complex.

I think someone being able to have a 100% accurate mental map is the stuff of cinematic heroes. You know, guys with IQ 13 and Photographic memory. My logic for heavily penalizing the IQ roll is not to punish EM/PM, but to highlight their unique capabilities. With a -4 or -5 penalty to the IQ roll to memorize the map, most regular people can't do that. But a clever girl with EM/PM can.

Quote:
So the Navigation skill level would be irrelevant?
For memorizing a map? Yeah. Navigation skill level is essentially irrelevant. And I think this impinges on Area Knowledge, a skill that is often under appreciated.

Now, that said, I'd generally allow someone with EM/PM to easily gain 1 point worth of Area Knowledge from traveling through an area. To me, the memory ability seems far more relevant to creating a mental map than the ability to determine north or time of day by the position of the sun.
__________________
Hydration is key
Verjigorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2019, 06:31 AM   #60
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Navigation

Verjigorm: You realize that by adding a -5 penalty to the IQ roll to memorize a map and proposing to increase the -10 penalty for not having any map by the margin of failure, your rules essentially state that an average person (IQ 10) who spends a whole workday (8 hours) poring over maps of his operational area, planning routes and memorizing fallbacks will be worse off than someone with zero preparation and no map about 75% of the time (IQ-5 +3 (for Time Spent.) = 8, fails on 9 or higher and thus suffers -11 or more). And that even highly intelligent special operators (IQ 13) are worse off after having an hour to prepare with a map than without any access to a map.

That is not plausible. In your desire to limit the impact of Eidetic and Photographic Memory, you've made it essentially impossible for anyone without it to benefit from mission planning and preparation with a map.

Cinematic heroes can glance at a map and remember it. Actual, real people can study a map and the possible routes they might want to use on an operation for days and weeks and thus make it possible to navigate under time pressure without referencing the map. That's not cinematic, that's what actual special operators do, and they usually don't have Eidetic or Photographic Memory. For those who do, I don't really see the problem of letting a success by 10 mean that they don't have to physically refer to the map any longer, after having spent so much time memorizing everything on it that matters to them.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
basic, navigation, orienteering, skill of the week, world building

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.