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Old 02-07-2017, 06:03 PM   #1
Humabout
 
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Default Pricing Cosmic, Applies after IT:DR for DR

So as the title suggests, I'm curious how much the Hivemind would charge for a Cosmic modifier to Damage Resistance that would allow it to be applied after and division of damage resulting from Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction).

For example, Bob has IT:DR 2 and DR 2 (Cosmic, Applies after Damage Reduction) and takes 8 points of damage. Normally, this would be reduced by DR to 6 points of damage and then halved to 3, but he has Cosmic, Applies after ITDR. Instead, the damage is halved, resulting in 4 damage, which is then reduced to 2 damage that would then be translated into injury normally.

Is this something you'd even consider? Why? I'm shopping for ideas and opinions.
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Old 02-07-2017, 06:15 PM   #2
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Default Re: Pricing Cosmic, Applies after IT:DR for DR

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So as the title suggests, I'm curious how much the Hivemind would charge for a Cosmic modifier to Damage Resistance that would allow it to be applied after and division of damage resulting from Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction).
There are already technical (if abusive) means of doing something like this, but in general I'd prefer for this to be an enhancement on IT(DR) (probably the same +50% as the no minimum damage rule), not an enhancement on DR.
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Old 02-07-2017, 06:23 PM   #3
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Default Re: Pricing Cosmic, Applies after IT:DR for DR

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There are already technical (if abusive) means of doing something like this, but in general I'd prefer for this to be an enhancement on IT(DR) (probably the same +50% as the no minimum damage rule), not an enhancement on DR.
That's actually quite fairer. This shouldn't be particularly cheap, and that'd ensure it. I'm trying to avoid something blatantly abusive, even if this would require a fair bit of monitoring anyway.
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Old 02-07-2017, 07:26 PM   #4
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Default Re: Pricing Cosmic, Applies after IT:DR for DR

Yeah, a 1 DR with "cosmic after it:dr" would probably always be an inexpensive way to reduce the minimum 1 injury that even IT:DR 10 has.
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Old 02-07-2017, 09:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: Pricing Cosmic, Applies after IT:DR for DR

for reference the +50% enhancement is in GURPS Powers (see Powers p.53 and p.118 – 119). see the last paragraph of the entry on p 119 where it says at the GMs option they only take this damage if it is at least 1 HP after the reduction. I think a lot of people miss that in the book but if its used it solves a lot of problems with Supers and Supernatural Immunity.
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Old 02-07-2017, 09:57 PM   #6
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Default Re: Pricing Cosmic, Applies after IT:DR for DR

If you have Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) 4, so that you divide damage by 4, and you take 20 points of damage, that gets reduced to 5 points. Then if you apply DR 1, it gets reduced to 4 points.

But to do that with standard DR, you'd need to apply DR 4, reducing damage to 16 points, and then divide by 4 to get 4 points.

So DR 1 (Cosmic, Applies after Damage Reduction 4) ought to cost 20 points, rather than 5 points for just taking DR 1. That's a +300% Cosmic. With Damage Reduction 2 you'd want +100%; with Damage Reduction 3 you'd want +300%; and with higher levels, well, Damage Reduction 100 would require a +9900% Cosmic on DR.

But it would be simpler just to buy twice, three times, four times, etc., as much DR in the first place.

I think, personally, that anything you do that makes DR cheaper than this is unfair.
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Old 02-08-2017, 07:18 AM   #7
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Default Re: Pricing Cosmic, Applies after IT:DR for DR

I more-or-less agree with Bill here. DR that applies after IT:DR is indistinguishable from simply purchasing more DR, so I'd handle it that way rather than with modifiers. The exception is if there are situations in which your IT:DR doesn't work, but in that case you build the DR with the same Limitations as the IT:DR.

Now, this gets hairier if you have armor (as gear) that you want the IT:DR to apply to. Technically, that would be a staggered Accessibility of some sort - with IT:DR 4, you'd have DR 3 (only when wearing DR 1+ armor), DR 6 (only when wearing DR 2+ armor), DR 9 (only when wearing DR 3+ armor), and so forth. Personally, for IT:DR 2, I'd be alright with a -50% Limitation on all the purchased DR, to limit it equalling DR from gear. Scale by SSR thereafter - so IT:DR 3 would be -30%, IT:DR 5 would be -20% (putting IT:DR 4 at around -25%), and so forth. That's just eyeballing things. In order for your IT:DR to apply to gear, in addition to needing to buy the above DR you also need to put Force Field +20% on IT:DR. Without purchasing the above DR, Force Field means your IT:DR applies to injury to your gear - damage to weapons past DR, damage to armor if using the optional rules from LTC2, loss of DR due to armor that is semi-ablative or hit with corr damage, and so forth.
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Old 02-08-2017, 04:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: Pricing Cosmic, Applies after IT:DR for DR

I do think I approached this fundamentally incorrectly when i suggested applying the Cosmic to DR instead of Injury Tolerance. I do still see the potential, as Varyon pointed out, for the need to apply Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) before DR - inherent, powers-based, equipment-derived, or otherwise. My gut feeling was that this feels like a rules break worth about +100% initially, but it's been suggested such a shift might be worth only a +50 Cosmic. Thoughts?
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Old 02-08-2017, 05:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: Pricing Cosmic, Applies after IT:DR for DR

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Originally Posted by Humabout View Post
I do think I approached this fundamentally incorrectly when i suggested applying the Cosmic to DR instead of Injury Tolerance. I do still see the potential, as Varyon pointed out, for the need to apply Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) before DR - inherent, powers-based, equipment-derived, or otherwise. My gut feeling was that this feels like a rules break worth about +100% initially, but it's been suggested such a shift might be worth only a +50 Cosmic. Thoughts?
IT(DR) can at high levels give a far more cost-effective defense than DR, which makes me inclined to suggest a higher cost than +50% for something like this which at high levels makes IT(DR) better than DR in almost every way.

Though no matter what cost you pick, there will always be circumstances where the cost is unfair since the benefits of IT(DR) grows exponentially with invested points while many other traits grows much slower.
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Old 02-08-2017, 05:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: Pricing Cosmic, Applies after IT:DR for DR

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Originally Posted by Humabout View Post
I do think I approached this fundamentally incorrectly when i suggested applying the Cosmic to DR instead of Injury Tolerance. I do still see the potential, as Varyon pointed out, for the need to apply Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) before DR - inherent, powers-based, equipment-derived, or otherwise. My gut feeling was that this feels like a rules break worth about +100% initially, but it's been suggested such a shift might be worth only a +50 Cosmic. Thoughts?
No, I think that's completely wrong. Applying IT(DR) first multiplies the effective value of DR. Each extra point of DR is equivalent to 5 character points. But how many character points you gain depends on how much DR you have.

For example, if you have IT(DR) 2, for 50 points, and you have DR 1, it's effectively DR 2, which is worth 5 points, which is +10%. But if you have DR 10, it's effectively DR 20, which is worth 50 points, which is +100%. And you could have even higher DR. There's no way to assign an equivalent point value to the "enhancement," so there's no fair price for it.

Just buy the DR at its standard price.
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