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Old 02-24-2021, 03:29 AM   #31
Rupert
 
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Default Re: Repricing Striking ST (but not HP or Lifting ST) in modern campaigns

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
KYOS removes too much granularity for my tastes, both at low and moderately high levels. That, and the damage is just silly. The progression of damage in the Basic Set may be somewhat arbitrary, but it intuitively seems about right. Someone who can lift ten tons (logST 31) punching with equivalent force to a mid-caliber rifle bullet (6d-1 thr) does not intuitively seem right.
For light entertainment, I worked out how much energy a punch might have from such a character. Assuming that two-handed lift went to 2m height, over the RAW 4s, it added about 178KJ to the object lifted over 4s. Assuming a one-handed punch lasting 1s puts in the same energy per hand, that's a punch landing with ~22.25KJ of kinetic energy.

Now, using the latest of Doug Cole's bullet damage formulas, and assuming the punch puts all its damage through the first two knuckles (an area of about two square inches) that gives us a base damage of 42.8 points, or about 12d+1. Of course, even allowing for a proper fist taking less damage than a fleshy target, there's going to be a lot of damage coming back into that fist...

Note this is very similar to the (unskilled) damage a ST111 (enough to lift that ten tons) character using the Basic Set would do with a punch.

However, skill affects damage when punching, and such a lift is surely like an All-out Attack in terms of effort. If we assume that AoA (Strong) add +1/die (as special attacks based of AoA tend to in Martial Arts), and that Brawling's damage bonus reflects landing blows properly and that the full Karate bonus includes landing them in vulnerable spots, the damage calculated off energy (42.8 points) actually reflects an underlying base ST thrust damage of 8d-1.

So, depending on your assumptions, the Basic Set damage is about right or rather too high, and the KYOS damage is very low, or a little low, or even about right (if you go with +2/die from Karate being all about proper use of energy). Of course, how I arrived at the energy of the punch is highly questionable. ;)
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Old 02-24-2021, 04:15 AM   #32
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Default Re: Repricing Striking ST (but not HP or Lifting ST) in modern campaigns

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. . . you otherwise go out of your way to make ST-based melee weapons important
I have encountered gamers who felt that "melee weapon fighter" and "ranged weapon fighter" were separate character niches, and should exist in any and all settings. To me, this makes no sense at TL6 or later, when firearms become reliable and powerful, and melee weapons' only real advantage is quietness. But some people feel that all games should work like dungeon fantasy.
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Old 02-24-2021, 05:50 AM   #33
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Default Re: Repricing Striking ST (but not HP or Lifting ST) in modern campaigns

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To me, this makes no sense at TL6 or later, when firearms become reliable and powerful, and melee weapons' only real advantage is quietness.

You may want to move that up to TL7, when personal automatic weapons become a thing. Hand to hand fighting in WWI trenches was very much a thing, and only a few people were good at it. In the trenches there was not even room to use a bayonet, so common weapons included knives (including nasty trianglar spikes with handles), clubs, and sharpened entrenching tools. Plus, you know, grenades.



even at TL8, you can still specialize in firearm tactics that work at closer or farther ranges, but those don't use striking ST any more.
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Old 02-24-2021, 06:01 AM   #34
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Default Re: Repricing Striking ST (but not HP or Lifting ST) in modern campaigns

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You may want to move that up to TL7, when personal automatic weapons become a thing. Hand to hand fighting in WWI trenches was very much a thing, and only a few people were good at it. In the trenches there was not even room to use a bayonet, so common weapons included knives (including nasty trianglar spikes with handles), clubs, and sharpened entrenching tools. Plus, you know, grenades.
Trenches were often surprisingly open at the time. The fighting was close because the attackers would have bayonets, so it was to the defenders' advantage to use shorter weapons and keep the fighting close once the attackers entered the trenches (besides, if you stay on top of the attackers, their friends who aren't yet in the trench are less likely to shoot you).

But note that the submachinegun is a TL6 invention, as is the semi-automatic (the the pump action) shotgun, and the semi-automatic pistol with large magazine.
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Old 02-24-2021, 07:16 AM   #35
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Default Re: Repricing Striking ST (but not HP or Lifting ST) in modern campaigns

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Trenches were often surprisingly open at the time. The fighting was close because the attackers would have bayonets, so it was to the defenders' advantage to use shorter weapons and keep the fighting close once the attackers entered the trenches (besides, if you stay on top of the attackers, their friends who aren't yet in the trench are less likely to shoot you).
Looking up front-line trench width, I keep on seeing "six feet" for the width. What I've seen of the knives and clubs they're associated with the night raids of trenches, more often with the attackers (who could specialize) than the defenders. Bayonet fencing takes a surprising amount of room. I do think the big over the top assaults mostly used the bayonet or shots though.


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But note that the submachinegun is a TL6 invention, as is the semi-automatic (the the pump action) shotgun, and the semi-automatic pistol with large magazine.
Yes, by the end of TL6 you have the capability to fight effectively at close quarters with guns. Its not true of the bulk of TL6, but it is true by WWII, at the end of it.



One slightly annoying thing about the TL system is that several iconic settings are right on TL boundaries, most notably the Wild West, World War 2, and Ancient Rome, and these settings have advanced capabilities compared to the rest of the TL.
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Old 02-24-2021, 09:20 AM   #36
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Default Re: Repricing Striking ST (but not HP or Lifting ST) in modern campaigns

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One slightly annoying thing about the TL system is that several iconic settings are right on TL boundaries, most notably the Wild West, World War 2, and Ancient Rome, and these settings have advanced capabilities compared to the rest of the TL.
I think that to some extent this is inevitable: WWII in particular is a time of huge change in many different technologies, so you can't really not have a tech level break just before it…

Anyway, the Villar Perosa is arguable, but the OVP-1918 is definitely an SMG by any reasonable definition, and the MP 18 was in service in the same year.
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Old 02-24-2021, 09:21 AM   #37
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Default Re: Repricing Striking ST (but not HP or Lifting ST) in modern campaigns

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
One slightly annoying thing about the TL system is that several iconic settings are right on TL boundaries, most notably the Wild West, World War 2, and Ancient Rome, and these settings have advanced capabilities compared to the rest of the TL.
This is tangential, but is that actually true of Rome? My read of the 4e Low-Tech sourcebooks is that Europe was mostly TL2 until well into the middle ages.
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Old 02-24-2021, 09:55 AM   #38
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Default Re: Repricing Striking ST (but not HP or Lifting ST) in modern campaigns

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This is tangential, but is that actually true of Rome? My read of the 4e Low-Tech sourcebooks is that Europe was mostly TL2 until well into the middle ages.

Remember that the "core" of TL2 includes the Persians, most of the war stories of the bible, and Greek city states. The Romans have a distinct technological edge over those folks.



There is a group of folks (including myself) who like to count Alexander the great and the Romans as TL3 and inhabitants of northern Europe in the 600's as TL2. The Mediterranean cultures had some pretty advanced stuff, and northern Europe took a while to catch up, even under roman rule.
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Old 02-24-2021, 09:57 AM   #39
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Default Re: Repricing Striking ST (but not HP or Lifting ST) in modern campaigns

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Anyway, the Villar Perosa is arguable, but the OVP-1918 is definitely an SMG by any reasonable definition, and the MP 18 was in service in the same year.
Which makes it available for the end of the war, but not all of it. And WWI is mid-TL6, not end TL6.
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Old 02-24-2021, 10:16 AM   #40
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Default Re: Repricing Striking ST (but not HP or Lifting ST) in modern campaigns

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One slightly annoying thing about the TL system is that several iconic settings are right on TL boundaries, most notably the Wild West, World War 2, and Ancient Rome, and these settings have advanced capabilities compared to the rest of the TL.
TL boundaries are often associated with times of social upheaval of one sort or another, so this is kind of inevitable. Another transitional setting would be the American Revolution (which occurs during the Industrial Revolution, the transition from TL 4 to TL 5), and the American Civil War has some aspects of that, taking place near the very end of TL 5, and around the same time as Wild West (although I think most of those stories are post-war, often with many characters having served on one side or the other).
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