The Complete GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

[trooper6]

One of the other things I think is interesting about niche protection are some of the covert values lurking about.

For example. Niche protection dictates that only the face be good at talking to people...that only the Thief be good at picking locks...that only the brain be smart...but everyone is expected to be able to fight even if just a little bit.

Why isn't everyone expected to be able to talk to people?

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Why isn't everyone expected to be able to talk to people?

<ZeroMostel>Tradition!</ZeroMostel>

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by trooper6

That's awfully bleak.

Peter has an unusual set of criteria for judging RPG design that some people find unrealistic.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by enpeze

Why not having the classical dungeon crawl roleplaying style with a good rule system instead of a mediocre one?

I have no problem with that. But that isn't what I think was proposed; what I read was something that would turn GURPS into D&D. There are plenty of other ways to do dungeon fantasy - T&T, TFT, and to a lesser extent C&S come to mind immediately - so why straitjacket the GM into a single style that's already described in another ruleset?

[reverend]

Originally Posted by trooper6

One of the other things I think is interesting about niche protection are some of the covert values lurking about.

For example. Niche protection dictates that only the face be good at talking to people...that only the Thief be good at picking locks...that only the brain be smart...but everyone is expected to be able to fight even if just a little bit.

IMO, I don't think it's a matter that a particular niche character be the only one that is good at something, but is instead the best amongst the PCs.

A wizard is plenty sneaky with the invisibility and the locksmith spells, but I'd rather trust the thief who has 20s in those skills and isn't burning fatigue left and right to handle that kind of work.

Generally everyone is able to contribute to a scene (regardless if they are fighting or talking to people), but it's just some people are better at certain tasks. (Like the barbarian cleaving the heads off orcs, as compared to the theif who has to get in position to launch his devestating sneak attacks, or the cleric who burning fatigue lob sunbolts.)

Originally Posted by trooper6

Why isn't everyone expected to be able to talk to people?

Why wouldn't they? If a group of characters wants to know what is going on in the underworld, why send anyone other than the theif who actually has the relevant skills? Same with learning stuff at a wizard's guild, or a temple, or whatnot.

Of course some characters might have disadvantages that prevents him or her from doing this, but that's not really a problem with niche protection.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

But GURPS Dungeon Fantasy throws away some of the best features of GURPS, by making templates mandatory and putting other similar restraints on character advancement.

"Best features" aren't objective absolutes; "best" is always best for some purpose, and arguably those aren't "best" features for what DF tries to do.

It would be so much better, inifinitely better, if niche protection was an emergent feature of the rules system, rather than something that needs to be artificially imposed on the metagame level.

I don't see why that would be intrinsically better, though I suppose if I had actual examples of game systems in which niche protection was acheived by each means I could evaluate what I thought was better in practice.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by robkelk

I have no problem with that. But that isn't what I think was proposed; what I read was something that would turn GURPS into D&D. There are plenty of other ways to do dungeon fantasy - T&T, TFT, and to a lesser extent C&S come to mind immediately - so why straitjacket the GM into a single style that's already described in another ruleset?

Because D&D does a lot of good things for that genre when looked at across its history and at a high level, though each specific version of it is weak in other areas where GURPS is strong (particularly, in in-play rules; fast-and-easy chargen and advancement tuned for a particular genre and playstyle is its main strength.) Welding that strength too GURPS strength in in play rules is attractive to some people (myself among them), particularly if its done in such a way where the full GURPS rules serve as an available underlying engine for, e.g., building new classes, powers, spells, etc.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

The choice is given to the GM, and if he fails to take that opportunity, there is no non-metagame niche protection.

That's not entirely true; GURPS already has a degree of niche protection in the form of talents, which encourage clustering abilities by increasing the payoff for doing it. The DF series adds a few more Talents and Talent-like advantages that similar reward clustering abilities. Or are you considering that "metagame"?

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

I don't see why that would be intrinsically better, though I suppose if I had actual examples of game systems in which niche protection was acheived by each means I could evaluate what I thought was better in practice.

D&D 4th edition, the powers system and a framework that enforces when you can take each one (like the prerequisite system of Magic)

Each 4th edition power doesn't do anything paritcular for a niche in of itself. But in combination the choice of powers to a classes defines that class niche. Hence the niche a class occupies a emergent characteristic of the colleciton of powers that make up that class.

The same for Magic the Gathering decks. Different type of decks have different strengths and play styles because of how the cards interact.

GURPS can easily emulate this type of structure.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Welding that strength too GURPS strength in in play rules is attractive to some people (myself among them), particularly if its done in such a way where the full GURPS rules serve as an available underlying engine for, e.g., building new classes, powers, spells, etc.

Classes? In GURPS? <whimper>

I think we're going to have to "agree to disagree" on this, because it looks like there's a fundamental and irreconcilable difference between our views of the system.