Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...

[PK]

Originally Posted by MissAmber

So reading over the 4th Edition rules, including GURPS Psionics, has left me feeling utterly lost as to how psionics works. I'm sure it's all there, but it's just not clicking for some reason. Perhaps I'm too entrenched in the power controlled by skill paradigm of 3rd Edition.

Disclaimer: As the author and an employee, I'm automatically biased in what I'm about to say. Doesn't mean it's not genuine and sincere advice, though.

I'd strongly recommend checking out GURPS Psionic Powers. It was written specifically for both the "I find psi confusing" crowd and the "I liked the power/skill approach of 3e" crowd. It is 100% GURPS/4e, but done in a way that those who used the old psi system seem to understand much better. Every significant ability comes in power levels and has an associated skill -- and if you're skilled enough, you can even learn to bend the rules in fun ways.

Hit e23 and look at the free preview -- or see if your FLGS has a physical copy in stock to flip through.

And if you like it, buy it, and still want something to make psychic character creation even faster and easier, GURPS Psis (a book of templates, "grab-n-go" premade packages of Psionic Powers, and character creation advice) is coming out pretty darn soon.

[Mgellis]

One question...if the main powers are all skill-based now, what do we call the skills? We have "official" names for psionic skills, but not for any others.

I suppose, when in doubt, one could simply use the name of the advantage as the name of the skill.

So, Illusion (Mutant, -10%) would simply use Illusion (IQ/H) skill. Control Water 2 (Super, -10%) would use Control (IQ/H) skill. Warp (Chi, -10%) would use Warp skill. And so on. Does this make sense?

And one more minor question...as far as I can tell, the IQ/H skills for abilities that are used for attacks (e.g., Lightning) replace any DX/E Innate Attack skills that might be related to the ability. You don't have to buy both. Is this correct?

[Archangel Beth]

*nod* Pee Kitty did a pretty darn good job of adapting the "feel" of 3e Psi to the newer rules of 4e. My suggestion is: get GURPS Psionic Powers if you haven't already ( http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-0132 ). Go to Chapter 3. (Not 1, not 2, but 3. Go back to the other chapters later, but since you're going from 3ePsi to this, the other chapters may well be more confusing if you start there. Flipping through Chapter 3 should get you feeling comfortable enough to take in the stuff from the prior chapters, betcha.)

Basically, there are now two ways to represent what used to be flat Power from 3e.

1) Talent. If you have the Talent for that Psi Power grouping (telepathy, telekinesis, electrokinesis, anti-psi, etc.) then it's pretty much equivalent to buying 3e's Power 1 with no skill, and the presumption that it's latent. As you gain points and/or the excuse to spend them on psi powers, you buy the actual advantages. It also grants the normal bonus of being a talent, when you do buy the skill.

(E.g., Jane buys Talent 1 for Astral Projection powers, for 5 points. She's a psi! She doesn't need to buy any of the advantages listed there, yet, and that's a good thing, because she's in a "start with 25 points" game with a crazy GM. O:> Later, when she gets more points, she can pick up something else and she'll have a +1 to skill when she finally buys skill in her powers.)

2) Just buy the advantage! While most powers no longer have a flat cost-per-level, there are usually at least a few levels and you can just take which one gives you the power level you want. If you have no skill, this is also pretty much the same as Power X, Skill 0 from 3e.

Ignore the Statistics part. It's for looking under the hood.

(E.g. Joan is in that same crazy 25-point psi game. She buys the first level of Astral Sight, for 6 points. It's an Astral Projection advantage, so she's a psi, too, and can pick up more, later. She doesn't get +1 to any skill she picks up, though, unless she buys Talent later.

Meanwhile, James bats his eyes at the GM and just buys a Perk of Near-Death Projector. The GM figures this counts as a Psionic Power for the power-group, so James is a psi also! He doesn't even need skill! Just to be nearly dead... But he can use that as his excuse to buy more Astral Projection stuff in the future, same as Jane and Joan.)

Skill is bought normally, IQ/Hard. Add the level of your talent to IQ.

[Double-check what it means by "optional" such as in Astral Amor. (I think it means that you can toggle it on and off, and have to have at least some skill to figure out how to turn it on. That's how I'd play it, anyway; Pee Kitty, if that's not what you meant, it needs errata! I can't find anything pertaining to that usage by searching on "optional." O:> )]



Unless I'm totally blanking, the assumption in 4e is that if you have any power from the power-grouping, you have a chance to buy the rest later -- see Joan and James. If you would rather go with something closer to 3e's "figure out if you're a one-trick-pony or if you can do it all within your power-group," use Talent to be the placeholder version for "I can have it all, later" and buy individual powers at their minimum level for the "can only do this one thing" option. At low levels, depending on the power, this can be more expensive for latent psi, so you might want to assign a weaker Talent that only applies to a given power/skill combo, but that's getting into customization and complexity. Suffice it to say, it wouldn't take much to get something that looks a lot like the old 3e system -- though the point costs will be more in line with non-psis doing much the same thing.

...does that help?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

[Double-check what it means by "optional" such as in Astral Amor. (I think it means that you can toggle it on and off, and have to have at least some skill to figure out how to turn it on. That's how I'd play it, anyway; Pee Kitty, if that's not what you meant, it needs errata! I can't find anything pertaining to that usage by searching on "optional." O:> )]

That means that you don't really need the skill, because the ability is passive and never needs rolls for normal use. (Astral Armor, for instance, is just DR. And not switchable DR either. It's completely passive.) But you might want to learn the skill anyway to do tricks with it.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

One question...if the main powers are all skill-based now, what do we call the skills? We have "official" names for psionic skills, but not for any others.

I suppose, when in doubt, one could simply use the name of the advantage as the name of the skill.

So, Illusion (Mutant, -10%) would simply use Illusion (IQ/H) skill. Control Water 2 (Super, -10%) would use Control (IQ/H) skill. Warp (Chi, -10%) would use Warp skill. And so on. Does this make sense?

And one more minor question...as far as I can tell, the IQ/H skills for abilities that are used for attacks (e.g., Lightning) replace any DX/E Innate Attack skills that might be related to the ability. You don't have to buy both. Is this correct?

Powers are not necessarily skill-based. It ought to depend on the source, on the advantage, and even on the individual. Magical regeneration can be just regeneration with the magical power modifier (Representing the ability to draw from ambient mana to restore one's body, what I would expect in a magical construct), or it can be regeneration with the magical power modifier, requires words, requires gestures and Requires IQ Roll, switched to requiring an IQ/H skill roll to represent a self healing spell.

For some sources, it makes sense to switch the rolls to skills, but for others, it does not. I personally feel that biological powers, for example, should not use skills, but it's MY interpretation.

As for names, you can name them whatever you want. I prefer to use colorful names for them. If the name is confusing I add the advantage they relate to in parenthesis such as "Odin's Vengeance (Burning Attack)" to represent a lightning bolt.

As for replacing existing skill rolls with new skills, it's worth 0% as long as the replaced skills use the same attribute and the original skill isn't hasder than the new skill. You can thus replace brawling with karate for melee innate attacks. In the case of Psionic Innate Attacks the attack roll is normally Innate Attack (DX/E), but since you can pile up techniques on it, to get extra effects, to maintain consistency with the rest of the Psionic Skills, and to avoid having an activate and an attack roll each round, it was replaced with an Hard Skill, and moved to IQ via an enhancement.

[Mailanka]

Blah, I know everyone is offering their own version of advice, so let me toss my two cents in.

Psionic Powers (all powers) are really just Advantages with flavor. For example, Mind Control is an Advantage found on page 68. If you want to control someone's mind, you take that Advantage. If you apply a limitation to it called "Psionic, -10%" (though, I think, specifically you'd use "Telepathic Power -10%," but more on that later) then it's now a psionic power. That means people with Anti-Psi can stop it, and so on.

At this point, you can stop. Your character is now psionic. That's all you need.

Psionic powers are a list of appropriate advantages for psionic characters. For example, Telepaths might take Mind Control, Mind Reading, Telesend or Possession, all perfectly normal advantages. Once you apply the limitation to them, they are considered "psionic powers," and follow all the normal psionic rules (again, for example, they can be stopped by an anti-psi).

That's really all there is to it.

As for Talent, you'd take "Telepathy Talent +(whatever)." Let's say +3. If you look at Mind Control, it states:

To use this ability,
concentrate for one second and
then roll a Quick Contest: your IQ vs.
your subject’s Will.

So you roll your IQ and add your Talent and he rolls his Will. Anytime an advantage associated with your power (Mind Control, Telesend, whatever) calls for a roll, you add your Talent to it.

In the old system, you had power and skill. In the new system, you simulate a powerful psi by spending lots of points on your advantages ("Mind Control with this enhancement and that enhancement and and and") and you simulate a skillful psi by spending lots of points on Talent.

As Rev Pee Kitty mentioned, if you want something that feels more like the old system, go pick up his GURPS Psionic Powers. It's a pretty good book, IMO.

Hope that helps.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

IQ mostly. Psionic Powers adds the concept of Skills for Psi. Your level of Talent adds to the IQ roll.

Those rules are in GURPS Powers and are useful generically, not just for Psionics.

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That means that you don't really need the skill, because the ability is passive and never needs rolls for normal use. [...] But you might want to learn the skill anyway to do tricks with it.

That makes lovely sense! Is there a page ref I'm missing for it, though?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

That makes lovely sense! Is there a page ref I'm missing for it, though?

Not that I know of, I'm just interpreting from the writeup of Astral Armor on PP26.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

That makes lovely sense! Is there a page ref I'm missing for it, though?

Not a direct quote... The meaning of "optional", as it applies to a power skill, is on p78. The uses of that skill (for those that decide to train it) are under Getting Tricky, and include the obvious benefit of using Extra Effort, among others.