Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-18-2016, 01:13 AM   #1
electrum
 
electrum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Default Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances

Okay, so we've been playing, and things have been great, but we've noticed a few... irregularities. This post covers four major questions I've got.

1. Hitboxes
So we're considering moving from narratively-determined hitboxes to rolled/called hitboxes, because we want to make combat more lethal, and we've decided that we need hit locations to implement wounds, crippling damage, etc.
However, we've realized something strange: A trained swordsman would definitely keep as much of his body away from the enemy as possible, but nevertheless the enemy can still call a shot against his back left foot, and as far as I know there is no avenue for the swordsman to "improve" his dodge; his front left hand is at much risk as back left foot. I am aware of the fencing weapon parry being +3, easier to ready, etc. But this means that, as far as I can tell, a trained gladiator swordsman can't improve his chances of dodging with stance or skill, except by getting combat reflexes.

2. Impaling Weapons
We have a spear-wielder, and he is a killing machine. We don't use combat distance very strictly, but we do have a rule that if someone is too close he has to shove, hit with the butt of the spear, retreat, etc. Is there some kind of bonus to parrying spears, avoiding them, or something else? Because he has impaling damage, any successful attacks he makes automatically do really severe damage, and usually the enemies are stuck on his spear and as such are further incapacitated.
Is that pretty normal? Or is combat distance the ceiling on impaling weapons? Some guidance here would be nice.

Additionally, he has SL14 with spear, which honestly I feel is preposterous because he's a merchant and not a gladiator, but that's his own character. This means he almost never fails his attacks, and as a result pretty much just mows down foes. Some guidance/comments would be appreciated.

3. Rigid armor

I have a judgment call to ask about for rigid armor. The blunt trauma mechanic only applies to flexible armor, and only if all the damage is absorbed. Because almost all other weapons are cutting/impaling, this puts crushing weapons at a pretty clear disadvantage.
Historically, maces/warhammers were used explicitly to deal with plate armor, but GURPS doesn't seem to reconcile this.
My friend suggests that maces are designed to deal with higher DR, rigid armor with their straight bonus damage. However, a steel breastplate is DR 5. Which means that my guy, with a weapon explicitly designed to counter rigid armor, with his 1d+3 damage, can only do a maximum of 4 damage to a knight's chest. This just seems incongruous to me, considering that in all-knight situations, typical weaponry was pretty much entirely maces or warpicks.

4. Hit chances
We have a lot of narrative explaining away of missed strikes as "he manages to curl himself away from you, and the sword narrowly passes in front of his chest." This seems a little strange considering we're all warriors. Is this the result of no one taking "evaluate" maneuvers? Or is this the difference between SL10, SL11, and SL12, as I see 12 describing professional skill level?
electrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2016, 01:41 AM   #2
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances

OK quick reply will try and expand later (when I get to work) EDIT: OK I've added a bit more.

One thing some of the stuff I mention below is in supplements namely Martial Arts and Martial Arts: Gladiators. I recommend both but especially the former if you're going to get into more detailed h-t-h combat with lots of clever tactics etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
Okay, so we've been playing, and things have been great, but we've noticed a few... irregularities. This post covers four major questions I've got.

1. Hitboxes
So we're considering moving from narratively-determined hitboxes to rolled/called hitboxes, because we want to make combat more lethal, and we've decided that we need hit locations to implement wounds, crippling damage, etc.
However, we've realized something strange: A trained swordsman would definitely keep as much of his body away from the enemy as possible, but nevertheless the enemy can still call a shot against his back left foot, and as far as I know there is no avenue for the swordsman to "improve" his dodge; his front left hand is at much risk as back left foot. I am aware of the fencing weapon parry being +3, easier to ready, etc. But this means that, as far as I can tell, a trained gladiator swordsman can't improve his chances of dodging with stance or skill, except by getting combat reflexes.

There are rules in Martial Arts: Gladiators for angled stances that presents one side and denies the other. And also for focussed defence which focuses your defence against one side at the expense of the other.

Improving dodge is matter of either doing so directly by improving the underlying stats or taking enhanced defence: dodge, or taking manoeuvres that allow to you to dodge better (Defensive attack, or All our Defence, retreat etc)

Also not sure what you mean by "fencing parry being +3 easier"? Its better in combination with retreat than others, and it get less penalties for multiple parries in a turn (it comes with some down sides as well though)

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
2. Impaling Weapons
We have a spear-wielder, and he is a killing machine. We don't use combat distance very strictly, but we do have a rule that if someone is too close he has to shove, hit with the butt of the spear, retreat, etc. Is there some kind of bonus to parrying spears, avoiding them, or something else? Because he has impaling damage, any successful attacks he makes automatically do really severe damage, and usually the enemies are stuck on his spear and as such are further incapacitated.
Is that pretty normal? Or is combat distance the ceiling on impaling weapons? Some guidance here would be nice.

Spears are good, cheap and effective weapons. But you might want to enforce the reach rules especially the rule for swapping between reach ranges (depending on what spear they are using). Get into Close combat range will hurt him as well. But also armour, every point of DR will stop 2 points of Imp injury.

What kind of ST's are we talking about here, that can make a significant difference (especially with RAW)

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
Additionally, he has SL14 with spear, which honestly I feel is preposterous because he's a merchant and not a gladiator, but that's his own character. This means he almost never fails his attacks, and as a result pretty much just mows down foes. Some guidance/comments would be appreciated.
Skill 14 is a pretty professional level. There's a chap who posts here called Douglas Cole who does some excellent stuff for GURPS here and in Pyramid articles. He has an equally excellent Blog, Here's a page he did on skill levels for melee.

What are you giving his opponents in terms of defences? Assuming no other factors someone with a skill of 12 and a medium (2DB) shield should be parrying him at Parry 11 or 63% of the time. Shields are great, also those tactics for helping increase dodge above will help his opponents to stay alive as well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
3. Rigid armor
I have a judgment call to ask about for rigid armor. The blunt trauma mechanic only applies to flexible armor, and only if all the damage is absorbed. Because almost all other weapons are cutting/impaling, this puts crushing weapons at a pretty clear disadvantage.
Actually the blunt trauma rules favours Cr weapons, so how are you applying it?



Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
Historically, maces/warhammers were used explicitly to deal with plate armor, but GURPS doesn't seem to reconcile this.
There is lots of thread that go into detail about this, but in short maces weren't (but they are better at it than say swords due to that higher damage, but then swords were really bad at it). Warhammers and other weapons that are often billed as anti-plate weapon went about it by targeting weak spots, tripping, levering etc rather than smashing through it.

However in general you do have an issue that by RAW ST based hand held weapons will quickly start giving unrealistic effects against armour as ST increases. This issue and how to tackle it is regular topic here, you will be able to find threads pretty easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
My friend suggests that maces are designed to deal with higher DR, rigid armor with their straight bonus damage. However, a steel breastplate is DR 5. Which means that my guy, with a weapon explicitly designed to counter rigid armor, with his 1d+3 damage, can only do a maximum of 4 damage to a knight's chest. This just seems incongruous to me, considering that in all-knight situations, typical weaponry was pretty much entirely maces or warpicks.
Well 4 points of damage is pretty good (IMO). But what maces and Cr weapon in general are good against is one of the most popular and long lived armour types in history, mail. Mail was around for far, far longer than full plate and in GURPS most types of mail get a -2 DR reduction vs. Cr damage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
4. Hit chances
We have a lot of narrative explaining away of missed strikes as "he manages to curl himself away from you, and the sword narrowly passes in front of his chest." This seems a little strange considering we're all warriors. Is this the result of no one taking "evaluate" maneuvers? Or is this the difference between SL10, SL11, and SL12, as I see 12 describing professional skill level?
Not quite sure what you mean here, you have just missing (i.e. failing the skill roll) but as you point out above once you get to skill 12+ and no other mods applying its pretty easy to be on target.

But you also have defences succeeding. Take that Skill 14 merchant you mentioned earlier. Yes he'll be on target 91% of the time, but he'll also succeed on his normal parry with just that skill 50% of the time.

So your descriptions will change accordingly.

Anyway cheers and let me know if all that makes sense and/or you have more questions

TD

Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-19-2016 at 03:42 AM.
Tomsdad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2016, 04:31 AM   #3
electrum
 
electrum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Default Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad
Actually the blunt trauma rules favours Cr weapons, so how are you applying it?
Yes, the blunt trauma rule does favor Cr weapons, but the issue is that, according to my book (Basic Set 4E), blunt trauma only happens when the victim is wearing flexible armor and all of the damage is absorbed by the armor. Taking your example of a mail shirt, that means that they only suffer blunt trauma if I deal either a 1 or a 2 before DR. Sure, blunt trauma accumulates twice as fast for Cr weapons, but the effect is so narrowly applied that it feels pretty useless. If I'm relying on a 5-to-1 damage conversion to defeat an enemy by pecking at him with 2s and 1s, I would say that is a poor weapon. Almost worse than a dagger, even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad
Also not sure what you mean by "fencing parry being +3 easier"? Its better in combination with retreat than others, and it get less penalties for multiple parries in a turn (it comes with some down sides as well though)
Yeah, that's what I meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad
There are rules in Martial Arts: Gladiators for angled stances that presents one side and denies the other. And also for focussed defence which focuses your defence against one side at the expense of the other.
I will have to look those up. We additionally realized a sort of odd strategy: If one of your arms gets crippled, it's already useless. So why not turn to face the enemy with that arm and let him pummel on it some more? According to most of the rules that arm can't inflict more damage to you as a whole unless he lands another crippling hit, so statistically it's advantageous to use your arm as a literal meatshield if you have nothing else. Is that correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad
What are you giving his opponents in terms of defences? Assuming no other factors someone with a skill of 12 and a medium (2DB) shield should be parrying him at Parry 11 or 63% of the time. Shields are great, also those tactics for helping increase dodge above will help his opponents to stay alive as well.
We've had issues in the past with combat taking too long due to too many enemies, too strong, dodge too readily, etc. So we've taken up a sort of house mook rule which makes them pretty weak. I'll have to take into account the shield giving 1/2DB though. That would definitely turn the tables on him a little.


Speaking of active defenses, we realized that one of our PCs took a cloak because he thought it was cool, and it has been giving him +1DB this whole time and we didn't realize. Because that +1DB is quite impactful we're using damage to shields. What are some typical rules for when that's targeted? It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me to say that a successful parry or block by the DB of the cloak means that I parried with the cloak. A dodge would, however. Also, do you prioritize hitting the cloak first, then the shield?
electrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2016, 05:06 AM   #4
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
Yes, the blunt trauma rule does favor Cr weapons, but the issue is that, according to my book (Basic Set 4E), blunt trauma only happens when the victim is wearing flexible armor and all of the damage is absorbed by the armor. Taking your example of a mail shirt, that means that they only suffer blunt trauma if I deal either a 1 or a 2 before DR. Sure, blunt trauma accumulates twice as fast for Cr weapons, but the effect is so narrowly applied that it feels pretty useless. If I'm relying on a 5-to-1 damage conversion to defeat an enemy by pecking at him with 2s and 1s, I would say that is a poor weapon. Almost worse than a dagger, even.
You'll still do better with a mace against mail though.
OK quick set up: ST10 3lb Broadsword (1d+1 cut) and ST10 3lb small Mace (1d+2 cr)

Both vs. DR5 mail


The sword on average does 4.5 and won't beat the mail

The mace on average does 5.5 but the mail is only DR3 vs. Cr so will actually do damage on average.

Now as I said this get's into a big topic about hand held ST derived damage vs. DR, but I'm trying to stick to basic RAW for the moment!


Just quickly blunt trauma is almost a red herring at this level as it's unlikely to apply. You have to do at least 5 points of Cr damage against flexible DR that will stop all that Cr damage (or 10 for Cut/Imp attacks which is even less likely).


Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
I will have to look those up. We additionally realized a sort of odd strategy: If one of your arms gets crippled, it's already useless. So why not turn to face the enemy with that arm and let him pummel on it some more? According to most of the rules that arm can't inflict more damage to you as a whole unless he lands another crippling hit, so statistically it's advantageous to use your arm as a literal meatshield if you have nothing else. Is that correct?
In theory yes, but the reality is unless your opponent actively decides to target that crippled arm it won't get hit. Well unless you use random locations in which case yes it's a soak location in terms of nothing else getting hit. Personally I'd still apply a stun penalty for getting hit in an already crippled limb even if there was no HP loss (it will still hurt a lot).

The stance rules in MA:G add a bit of detail in that turning side on and having your weapon in your trailing hand can effect that weapons reach so you might end up negatively effecting your ability to fight.


The reality is for more low level fights having an arm crippled is pretty much going to be the end of a fight. Or certainly the beginning of the end

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
We've had issues in the past with combat taking too long due to too many enemies, too strong, dodge too readily, etc. So we've taken up a sort of house mook rule which makes them pretty weak. I'll have to take into account the shield giving 1/2DB though. That would definitely turn the tables on him a little.
Mook rules are pretty common, and to be fair they are designed towards your PCs hitting often and ending fights quickly, which is what this chap seem's to be doing.

The corollary is the GURPS combat system also gives various ways to fight defensively. Should you ever want to draw your combats out give your mooks big DB3 shields, and the shield wall training perk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
Speaking of active defenses, we realized that one of our PCs took a cloak because he thought it was cool, and it has been giving him +1DB this whole time and we didn't realize. Because that +1DB is quite impactful we're using damage to shields. What are some typical rules for when that's targeted? It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me to say that a successful parry or block by the DB of the cloak means that I parried with the cloak. A dodge would, however. Also, do you prioritize hitting the cloak first, then the shield?
Sorry I'm not quite sure what you are asking. There are rules for damaging shields pg 484 & 287 (and cloaks pg 484 & 184).


But you seem to be talking about using a cloak and shield at the same time (which I guess you could do one in either hand, I'd allow the defender to chose which took the potential damage in the case it came up)?

Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-18-2016 at 09:55 AM.
Tomsdad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2016, 03:28 PM   #5
electrum
 
electrum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Default Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
You'll still do better with a mace against mail though.
OK quick set up: ST10 3lb Broadsword (1d+1 cut) and ST10 3lb small Mace (1d+2 cr)

Both vs. DR5 mail


The sword on average does 4.5 and won't beat the mail

The mace on average does 5.5 but the mail is only DR3 vs. Cr so will actually do damage on average.
I see. Your post combined with the very extensive post (which I won't quote here) by Curmudgeon really changed how I saw melee. That does considerably change things.
We won't need it since we're TL2 (and I don't think we're going to encounter lorica segmentata-type armor, either, but what are the recommended rules for making combat against soldiers wearing this armor doable? I suppose integrate the "chinks in the armor" rules, right? What else could be done?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Mook rules are pretty common, and to be fair they are designed towards your PCs hitting often and ending fights quickly, which is what this chap seem's to be doing.

The corollary is the GURPS combat system also gives various ways to fight defensively. Should you ever want to draw your combats out give your mooks big DB3 shields, and the shield wall training perk.
I'm really fond of the idea of giving the mooks big shields. I definitely think it would encourage tactical thinking and increase the overall lethality of combat. I'm not trying to get my PCs killed, just make them less gung-ho about charging in with 75 character points toward armed palace guards, you know?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Sorry I'm not quite sure what you are asking. There are rules for damaging shields pg 484 & 287 (and cloaks pg 484 & 184).


But you seem to be talking about using a cloak and shield at the same time (which I guess you could do one in either hand, I'd allow the defender to chose which took the potential damage in the case it came up)?
Oh I see. I did not realize that a cloak was a wielded weapon. It just didn't seem obvious. That was due to the fact that I never really understood what "cloak and dagger" really looked like as a fighting style. A little bit of research and looking at manuals has cleared that up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Swung crushing weapons do lots of damage, which is how they defeat rigid armor. Blunt trauma is mostly irrelevant against humans in historical armor. It's more likely to matter if you let people have some kind of ultratech flexible armor which somehow still has lots of DR vs crushing damage.
It's clear now that blunt trauma only applies in that kind of situation. The manuals don't make that very obvious, though. I know they did it for the sake of brevity, but without knowledge of those ballistic vest-type armors it did make the rule seem strange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
However, I should note that, unless using a barbed head, thrust impaling weapons don't get stuck like swing impaling weapons do - the default assumption for a spear strike is that you stab and withdraw (leaving your weapon free to Parry incoming attacks). If the character opts to use a barbed head (which makes thrust impaling attacks get stuck just like swing impaling ones do), keep in mind that while his spear is in his foe's gut, it's going to be extremely awkward - if not outright impossible - to Parry with it, and he can't Retreat without abandoning his weapon.
I'll take the advice that he has to explicitly leave his spear there. But I think he'll be tempted to continue to leave the spear in, because it's our common-sense style of play that the guy is probably stunned from the hit (usually he's dealing 4-8 damage per strike) or at least at a massive disadvantage, and the PCs gang up on this guy and get him. Do you think an impaled enemy would be more capable of retaliating, even with the spear still lodged in his gut?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
GURPS combat is not particularly realistic, but it gives ordinary people a way to resolve a wide variety of situations, and it makes it possible to translate between everyday language and GURPS jargon in a straightforward way. It does not create those issues of "you hit him with your blaster pistol, but not hit-hit, just inflicted Hit Points of damage" which more abstract systems create.

Styles which prefer to keep a hand and weapon forward are likely to get the Fencing bonuses to defence.
How do you think it should be taken then, if a PC just says "oh yeah well my guy's no idiot, of course he's going to take a fencing stance"? AFAIK there's no specific skill I can require. I don't like to just say "narratively, your guy is a pirate, not a fencer. He's not trained as a fencer and has no reason to know this. You can't do it"

And as for the former, that's how I've been dealing with it so far. It sometimes feels muddy and "hacked together" when we do it that way, like we're missing an aspect of how it would really turn out.

This thread has so far made it clear that I need to read the whole of low-tech, at least!
electrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2016, 04:32 PM   #6
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
How do you think it should be taken then, if a PC just says "oh yeah well my guy's no idiot, of course he's going to take a fencing stance"? AFAIK there's no specific skill I can require. I don't like to just say "narratively, your guy is a pirate, not a fencer. He's not trained as a fencer and has no reason to know this. You can't do it"

And as for the former, that's how I've been dealing with it so far. It sometimes feels muddy and "hacked together" when we do it that way, like we're missing an aspect of how it would really turn out.

This thread has so far made it clear that I need to read the whole of low-tech, at least!
If GURPS was being written from scratch by historians of fencing, the Fencing skills might well be replaced with an option that represents leading with the weapon, point in line with the enemy, and trying to return to that stance as often as possible. This would offer bonuses to defence and in Who Strikes First, but expose the weapon and weapon hand to attacks and Beats and give some penalties to cutting attacks (damage penalty? bonus to parry them? I don't know). Historically, some fencers recommended relying on guardie basse strette (low guards with the point in line) when fencing with the staff or sword alone, and others did not ... they have many good features but some disadvantages, especially if the sword does not protect the sword hand very well.

At the end of this rules change, the skills Staff and Spear and Lance would probably be replaced with a single skill, just like Broadsword, Rapier, and Smallsword would become one. But my GURPS books are back in the Old Country. Some aspects of the GURPS combat mechanics date back to the 1980s when less was known and there was no community of experts in different subjects to help the authors do research or write the books themselves.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature

Last edited by Polydamas; 05-19-2016 at 04:36 PM.
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2016, 04:40 PM   #7
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
I see. Your post combined with the very extensive post (which I won't quote here) by Curmudgeon really changed how I saw melee. That does considerably change things.
We won't need it since we're TL2 (and I don't think we're going to encounter lorica segmentata-type armor, either, but what are the recommended rules for making combat against soldiers wearing this armor doable? I suppose integrate the "chinks in the armor" rules, right? What else could be done?
Chinks in armor should probably be included but isn't likely to be relevant...the penalties to hit them are huge and your characters don't seem to have that kind of skill.

The simplest bypass for heavy armor is hitting where it isn't. On most armor that doesn't mean aiming for small gaps, it means aiming for entire hit locations that have no armor protection. Face, neck, abdomen if you're using the Low Tech version of the hit locations, and limbs all offer chances to make somebody's solid torso protection do nothing, for less penalty than targetting chinks and still dealing with half DR.

For really comprehensive suits you may need the smaller (and often still partially protected) armor gaps detailed in Low Tech. Frankly, dealing with that may be beyond your PCs' capabilities during anything like a fair fight. If they find themselves really needing to do it anyway, manufacturing an unfair shot by knocking the knight down, disarming them, and maybe grappling them before lining up for the kill may be best.

(At the point where somebody is down and having a dagger insinuated into their throat or armpit, they're fairly likely to try to surrender rather than play out the final gruesome steps. And people with that kind of armor usually can pay ransoms.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
I'll take the advice that he has to explicitly leave his spear there. But I think he'll be tempted to continue to leave the spear in, because it's our common-sense style of play that the guy is probably stunned from the hit (usually he's dealing 4-8 damage per strike) or at least at a massive disadvantage, and the PCs gang up on this guy and get him. Do you think an impaled enemy would be more capable of retaliating, even with the spear still lodged in his gut?
Leaving the spear in doesn't make the target any more likely to be stunned. It might serve to hamper their movement (though really they can probably pull themselves off it easily enough if they want to), compare whatever rules you've got for weapons that are supposed to get stuck.

In most contexts I would not expect the benefits to be worth effectively disarming a PC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
How do you think it should be taken then, if a PC just says "oh yeah well my guy's no idiot, of course he's going to take a fencing stance"? AFAIK there's no specific skill I can require. I don't like to just say "narratively, your guy is a pirate, not a fencer. He's not trained as a fencer and has no reason to know this. You can't do it"
Well, to get the bonuses GURPS associates with 'fencing', you need to be using an appropriate skill and weapon (Main-Gauche, Rapier, Saber, or Smallsword, and pick weapons with "F" in the parry column of their stat line).

Presenting one side or the other using the rules in Martial Arts: Gladiators doesn't require that. Once you actually look at the mechanical effects, your player's feeling that they'd have to be an idiot not to use it may be shaken, though...

(In particular, if you're presenting your weapon hand you're making it more likely you'll get that crippled and lose your weapon, which is bad. If you're presenting your off hand you're making it harder to parry, and maybe also reach targets, with your main hand.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
This thread has so far made it clear that I need to read the whole of low-tech, at least!
A pretty good idea. You might also want to read large portions of Martial Arts, if you haven't.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2016, 08:26 PM   #8
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
We won't need it since we're TL2 (and I don't think we're going to encounter lorica segmentata-type armor, either, but what are the recommended rules for making combat against soldiers wearing this armor doable? I suppose integrate the "chinks in the armor" rules, right? What else could be done?

it's our common-sense style of play that the guy is probably stunned from the hit (usually he's dealing 4-8 damage per strike) or at least at a massive disadvantage, !
At TL2 anything that would pass for "heavy armor" in these here parts is not very likely. Whole body coverage with DR that will stop 1D+1 or so is n't seen historically until the cusp of TL3/4. Even then Feet and Hands (only -3 to hit each) are more lightly armored and also easily Crippled.

About the other thing note that with a 6 HP wound the guy is not only "com0on sense stunned" a 10 HP average guy is subject to the Knockdown and Stun rules (Campaigns p.420). Fail the HT roll and that dropping your weapon and falling down is a fight-ender in most LT melee situations.

Or Mr Armor Guy could fall down because you Crippled his Foot. That's the time to do an all Out Attack (Strong) and get +2 damage which is another way to penetrate that armor.

Before you invest a lot of time in reading LT and Martial Arts go through the Basic stuff about Hit Locations and damage and combat options in Campaigns first. There's a lot there.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2016, 03:48 AM   #9
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
I see. Your post combined with the very extensive post (which I won't quote here) by Curmudgeon really changed how I saw melee. That does considerably change things.
We won't need it since we're TL2 (and I don't think we're going to encounter lorica segmentata-type armor, either, but what are the recommended rules for making combat against soldiers wearing this armor doable? I suppose integrate the "chinks in the armor" rules, right? What else could be done?
People have said the main one, basically unless you exceptionally skilled you best bet is hit where the amour isn't covering. Which at TL2 is probably limbs (or as depending on the rules your using the abdomen).



Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
I'm really fond of the idea of giving the mooks big shields. I definitely think it would encourage tactical thinking and increase the overall lethality of combat. I'm not trying to get my PCs killed, just make them less gung-ho about charging in with 75 character points toward armed palace guards, you know?
Absolutely, I run low power (75-100) dark ages stuff so I know exactly what you mean. And I find at the level you get lots of tactics because it unlikely there's going to be a huge stat advantage. Shield wall tactics come up a lot in my games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
Oh I see. I did not realize that a cloak was a wielded weapon. It just didn't seem obvious. That was due to the fact that I never really understood what "cloak and dagger" really looked like as a fighting style. A little bit of research and looking at manuals has cleared that up.
Sorry I guess I grew up watching Oliver Reed slapping people about with his cloak in the 70's Musketeer's films* ; -)



*which are an odd mix of the historically good and historically ...less good!
Tomsdad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2016, 08:41 AM   #10
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
We won't need it since we're TL2 (and I don't think we're going to encounter lorica segmentata-type armor, either, but what are the recommended rules for making combat against soldiers wearing this armor doable? I suppose integrate the "chinks in the armor" rules, right? What else could be done?
As others have noted, go for where the armor isn't. There's also the fact that, with GURPS have such high ST-based damage, even pretty decent armor means damage typically gets reduced rather than outright prevented. Lorica segmentata, for example, is around DR 3 (LT115), gives 1/6 protection to the Arms and Face (the latter is actually DR 4), 4/6 protection to the legs, and no protection to the Neck, Hands, or Feet (sandals actually give DR 1 to the feet from below, but that doesn't matter to your characters). If your merchant spearman is ST 10, he's doing either 1d imp or 1d+1 imp, depending on if he's using that spear one-handed or two-handed. Stabbing at the torso, he has a 50% or 67% chance of penetrating the armor (if going more in-depth, he can actually aim at the DR 2 abdomen at only -1 to hit, for 67% or 83% chance of penetration). He has the same probability of penetrating if he hits the armor of any of the partially-protected hit locations, but also has a chance of outright ignoring the DR - roll 1d6; anything but a 1 against the Arms (-2 to hit) or Face (-5 to hit) hits the unarmored part, and a 5 or 6 against the Legs (-2 to hit) does the same. Going for the Hands (-4), Feet (-4), or Neck (-5) are also viable, although those drop the character's hit probability to 50% or lower (before defenses). You can also attempt to grapple the foe to bring him down, or can trip him to make it less risky to follow up with a Telegraphic All Out (Strong or Determined, depending on if you're trying to penetrate or avoid armor) Attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
I'll take the advice that he has to explicitly leave his spear there. But I think he'll be tempted to continue to leave the spear in, because it's our common-sense style of play that the guy is probably stunned from the hit (usually he's dealing 4-8 damage per strike) or at least at a massive disadvantage, and the PCs gang up on this guy and get him. Do you think an impaled enemy would be more capable of retaliating, even with the spear still lodged in his gut?
First, unless the spear is barbed (which is a no-cost feature, so the player can just say "yeah, my dude's spear is totally barbed" and have it function as such from here on out), the spear doesn't get lodged, even if the character tries to have it do so (the foe can just stumble back a bit to get it out). Once it's stuck, you may wish to consider the foe as being grappled, with all that entails. If you want a more advanced treatment of how such grappling would work, Technical Grappling is useful - but you should be fine with just the default (IIRC) -4 to DX and unable to move without first breaking the grapple (which in this case requires the foe to either disarm you or pull the spear out himself, which deals half the injury it did going in).

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum View Post
How do you think it should be taken then, if a PC just says "oh yeah well my guy's no idiot, of course he's going to take a fencing stance"? AFAIK there's no specific skill I can require. I don't like to just say "narratively, your guy is a pirate, not a fencer. He's not trained as a fencer and has no reason to know this. You can't do it"
"Fencing" refers to skills with Parry 0F - Rapier, Saber, Smallsword, Karate, etc. If the character isn't using such a skill, he doesn't get the Parry benefits for using a fencing stance.


A final note on why spears are awesome, if I may - a spear has a base cost of $40, while a Thrusting Broadsword has a base cost of $600. You can get a Fine, Balanced Spear for $560, for +1 to damage and to hit. At ST 10, your spear has a higher chance to hit and its thrust damage exceeds that of the sword and equals the sword's swing damage, and it still costs a bit less than the sword does. And you have the option of grabbing it in two hands for a further +1 damage and better Reach. As ST goes up, this isn't quite as good (swing damage increases faster than thrust), but it's still able to compete with the sword.
Varyon is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
armor, combat distance, impaling, question, rules

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.