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Old 10-18-2021, 11:42 PM   #21
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Default Re: Need Advice: Making GURPS Approachable For the Non-gamer/Non-geek

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Originally Posted by mook View Post
If you do manage to reel 'em in, I find this character sheet great for starting out first-timers, especially non-gamers.
That's really, cool! Great idea for beginners!
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Old 10-19-2021, 08:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: Need Advice: Making GURPS Approachable For the Non-gamer/Non-geek

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Originally Posted by psych0nurse View Post
I think the advice on finding out what the player's interests are is important.
At its core Table-Top RPGs are shared storytelling or a form of "make believe" for adults.

As a GM, you have a duty to find a "way in" to your players' heads, determine their interests & playing styles, and use that knowledge to create settings and adventures which will continually engage their attention.

For a "non-nerd" player you're going to need to take an even bigger step back to figure out her interests.

What books did she read as a kid? What sort of characters or settings engage her interest? What sort of media does she like (e.g., police procedural TV shows, romance novels)? Does she enjoy puzzles? How does she approach tabletop games - as a chance to hang out with friends with game optional, as blood sport, or something in between?

The good news is that because it's all new for her, you can rip off any iconic book or movie plot and run with it. Possibly cue the experienced players in if you think it will help. If she's up to it make the new player the lead character in a classic story and give the other players pre-gen character sheets for iconic supporting characters.
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Old 10-20-2021, 03:45 PM   #23
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Default Re: Need Advice: Making GURPS Approachable For the Non-gamer/Non-geek

We've trained a lot of new gamers and new GURPS players but never someone who hasn't at least a "Yeah I saw a few episodes of Game of Thrones" or "I read Dune, is it like that?" player. I don't think they're necessarily less capable of understanding the mechanics, I'd worry about the landmines of shorthand we use in geek culture to explain ideas like "Redshirts" or "Crit-Fail". Don't make things needlessly complicated, help them play a character that's going to do something reliably that's clearly explained. Give them as much time as they need to help them feel like they're part of the story.
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Old 10-22-2021, 10:47 AM   #24
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Default Re: Need Advice: Making GURPS Approachable For the Non-gamer/Non-geek

It is too important to understand that the sentence of 'Making GURPS approachable for non-gamers' is effectively saying 'Making games approachable for non-gamers'.

It is too important to understand WHY exactly you want people not interested in gaming, or non-gamers, to play a game with you. If there's no reason other than 'It's what I do and I want to spend time with these people', perhaps a better solution would be to ask to spend time with them, and for them to choose the activity.

Because despite what a lot of people want to believe, or want you to believe, is that GURPS game, despite everything, is a game about GURPS. When you tell the tale about cowboys, they play cowboys in GURPS. When you tell the tale about fantastic wizard adventures, they play GURPS Wizards.

So when everyone gathers at the table, ALL must be clearly interested in playing GURPS, and the only way to sell GURPS to people is to make them want to play GURPS, a tabletop game. They must not just be there for the story, they must be there for GURPS.

Well how do you sell GURPS to somebody who isn't currently playing GURPS?
1) You must pick a target that's very clearly and obviously in possession of qualities that require one to play GURPS. And that is patience and willingness to learn.

GURPS Lite is 32 pages long. Skimming it takes 15 minutes. Imagining and creating a character - no more than two hours.

If they can't do so, or don't want to, there's really nothing you can do. They do not want to play GURPS and that's okay!

If you do things like "translate their words into GURPS ruleset" or "make character for them", all you will accomplish is get somebody who will have barely any idea what is happening to your table. For 3 to 4 hours. Somebody who couldn't read 32 pages of a booklet, and then you expect them to pay attention to you and contribute for the duration of the session.

2) Once you pick a target that's clearly in possession of proper qualities, you need to sell them the game proper.
"GURPS does everything!" is not a proper way to do it. GURPS does GURPS, that is first of all. GURPS can empower a lot of tales, but ultimately they will be GURPS Tales. So never say "We'll be playing Star Wars! P.S.: With GURPS", always say "We'll be playing GURPS, I have a Star Wars campaign!". With that in mind, sell people on GURPS:
- GURPS turn structure and maneuver mechanic lets you do things as if you would do them IRL. You don't just "spend 5 seconds shanking somebody with a sword", you "Thrust your sword at the enemy, past his parry, and into his leg, crippling him!". You don't do a magical "take cover" action, you "move to the cover, adjust your posture" and you can even rest your gun on the cover for bonuses!
- GURPS characters are built in a more free form chassis than other games, allowing you to make the hero you want, unrestricted by any sort of 'class' that forces your hero to be a halberdier because another choice of yours locked them into this specific weapon.
- GURPS systems are high quality and pass reality check very often, thus inviting a wargaming crowd for a more personal adventure is a great idea. You know, the crowd that likes to slide around the table with rulers. None of that "How come I can't do that?!" "The game wont let you"
- GURPS Material is a great way to learn new tidbits about various concepts. Their books are written so well that you will not only want to play it after reading it, you'll be smarter too, and perhaps get interested in a hobby that it is written about, like guns or history.

etc.
3) Be available to answer their questions as they dig into the books. That'll greatly speed up their learning, and thus your own enjoyment of the game.


In the end, you could be asking "My accounter friend doesn't get SmackHammer 420,000, how can I make the game more approachable to her", and the answer would be the same - make sure she actually WANTS to play a tabletop game, and thus put in effort to learn it. If she doesn't, you will never make it accessible to her.
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Old 10-22-2021, 11:14 AM   #25
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Default Re: Need Advice: Making GURPS Approachable For the Non-gamer/Non-geek

I admit I'm speaking here largely out of ignorance because I don't know the person involved. But someone who's not into fantasy, science fiction, role-playing games, etc. is not likely to get enthused about Dungeon Fantasy RPG or any RPG. Unless they're into, say, history, and you do a GURPS historical campaign.

But who knows. Being introduced to role-playing could spark an interest in those other things.
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Old 10-22-2021, 03:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: Need Advice: Making GURPS Approachable For the Non-gamer/Non-geek

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
It is too important to understand WHY exactly you want people not interested in gaming, or non-gamers, to play a game with you. If there's no reason other than 'It's what I do and I want to spend time with these people', perhaps a better solution would be to ask to spend time with them, and for them to choose the activity.
We've been playing board games, but I'd like to do something that my friend with the health issue really enjoys, and that's RPGs in general, and he's a GURPS player from way back.

However, I also want the experience to be as pleasant as possible for his sister, the non-gamer. If they could visit us, we could watch movies, or play video games, but our home isn't accessible, which is something I plan to change as my wife and I age.
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Old 10-23-2021, 02:33 PM   #27
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Default Re: Need Advice: Making GURPS Approachable For the Non-gamer/Non-geek

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Because despite what a lot of people want to believe, or want you to believe, is that GURPS game, despite everything, is a game about GURPS. When you tell the tale about cowboys, they play cowboys in GURPS. When you tell the tale about fantastic wizard adventures, they play GURPS Wizards.

So when everyone gathers at the table, ALL must be clearly interested in playing GURPS, and the only way to sell GURPS to people is to make them want to play GURPS, a tabletop game. They must not just be there for the story, they must be there for GURPS.
This IMHO is an incorrect view. GURPS is as much a toolbox as it is a game and you can use parts of GURPS in other systems. The GURPS magic systems in D&D is a case in point. It uses GURPS mechanics and rules to do things regarding magic that D&D players have been wanting as far back as AD&D1.
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Old 10-23-2021, 08:41 PM   #28
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Default Re: Need Advice: Making GURPS Approachable For the Non-gamer/Non-geek

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This IMHO is an incorrect view. GURPS is as much a toolbox as it is a game and you can use parts of GURPS in other systems. The GURPS magic systems in D&D is a case in point. It uses GURPS mechanics and rules to do things regarding magic that D&D players have been wanting as far back as AD&D1.
It is telling that it has to be called GURPS Magic in D&D, in comparison, for example, to Vancian casting that existed before DnD in a novel. It's not a self-contained entity created and advertised as plug and play with any system, that's why author writes a great article on how to unplug GURPS magic from GURPS systems and attach it to DnD systems, which, again, underlines the ultimate desire to be a GURPS Wizard, but in DnD. Desire to play GURPS.

Taking scissors to Basic Set and then performing some great experiment does not make GURPS a "toolbox", otherwise DnD 3.5 qualifies to exist as a toolbox based solely on the amount of OSR games that run it as a backend.

One could try to claim that turning rules on and off and using different splat books makes GURPS a toolbox, but in the end all you do is adjust how you play GURPS. GURPS is a car that you can modify, and it was never designed to act as a box of screws for you to do whatever with, though naturally you can disassemble the car and pull off stunts with components. Like with literally any system down to Simple D6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GameBuddah View Post
We've been playing board games, but I'd like to do something that my friend with the health issue really enjoys, and that's RPGs in general, and he's a GURPS player from way back.

However, I also want the experience to be as pleasant as possible for his sister, the non-gamer. If they could visit us, we could watch movies, or play video games, but our home isn't accessible, which is something I plan to change as my wife and I age.
It's a tough situation and I sympathize with you. Consider doing some 1 on 1 things with your friend's sister to get her up to speed. Or just chat with her, maybe she'd be more comfortable watching you play. Still, GURPS lite is merely 32 pages long.
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Master: Kromm vs PK

GURPS: Shooting things for fun and profit

Last edited by MrFix; 10-23-2021 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 10-23-2021, 09:43 PM   #29
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Default Re: Need Advice: Making GURPS Approachable For the Non-gamer/Non-geek

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It is telling that it has to be called GURPS Magic in D&D, in comparison, for example, to Vancian casting that existed before DnD in a novel.
Actually it is called "GURPS magic systems" in D&D not "GURPS Magic in D&D". There is a difference.

"Strain and Spell Casting" Dragon #29 (Sept 1979) was one of the first efforts at creating a point based system for D&D. Note the date - some 7 years before GURPS appeared.

"Casting a spell can be a very taxing experience." - sound familiar?
"The total amount of strain a Mage can take each day is divided into
Strain Points." - also sound familiar?

It was crude and the author (Kevin Thompson) admitted "it makes M-U’s even weaker than they already are" But even back then the Vancian casting just rubbed players the wrong way.

Every effort to make a point system in D&D hadn't worked well because the spells are organized by level and if you base the points on level a high level magic-user could be casting more low level spells than they knew what to do with.

Why reinvent the wheel when somebody has come up with reasonably balanced systems you can tweak to fit your play style?
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Old 10-24-2021, 04:22 PM   #30
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Default Re: Need Advice: Making GURPS Approachable For the Non-gamer/Non-geek

It sounds to me as if the lack of genre familiarity is the problem.

The newcomer isn't resistant to any particular system, the way a player who has become accustomed to one way of doing things goes. She lacks any idea of how RPGs achieve their effects and is very far from having the vocabulary to criticise that.

But you don't need to do that. The GM can, in any system, say "Don't worry about those things. Roll the dice when I tell you. Imagine the effects I describe to you. What you need to do is tell me what your character will do in those circumstances." At one time (way back in the dawn of table-top RPGs) there was a school of thought that the players never needed to know anything about the resolution systems. That has faded but the option is still there.

The real problem is the lack of genre familiarity. It is possible that this is a person who doesn't 'get' make-believe and playing the role of someone other than themselves. If that is the case they will just be miserable at the table unless somehow this is what they have been missing to trigger that bit of their imagination.

If not so limited then the trick is to give them a character from an action-adventure genre that they do understand. A Wild West character or a more modern spy or other agent. You could build the whole game setting around them or you could drop them through a portal or Banestorm into the fantasy setting. That way they can play 'stranger in a strange land' and be someone to whom the other characters can explain things. Their six guns or AK-47 will give them a role, at least until the ammo runs out.
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