Destiny: What would a world dominated by it look like?

Michael Cule · 10-08-2021, 10:36 AM

The latest episode of the podcast has me and Roger wittering about Destiny and him expressing his dislike of the GURPS rule on the topic.

Which led to me thinking about the idea that you can have a preset Destiny for good or ill and it collided with an idea about running a portal fantasy.

I'm wondering what a world where everybody has a Destiny would look like. Where everybody knows what their Destiny is... because it's easy to find out. How would people live?

And what would be the effect if the player characters were immigrants from a world where either there is no Destiny or all of them were recruited as they lay dying, their Destiny behind them. How would they discover the strangeness of the new world? How could they break the binding on the people of this world to bring them something like freedom?

(Apologies to those who don't like metaphysics.)

David Johnston2 · 10-08-2021, 11:05 AM

A world in which everyone has a Destiny is unworkable. The whole point of Destiny is that you are going to do something special or unusual. If everyone has a Destiny, then nobody has a Destiny. You could have a setting where, say, one in a hundred people be born with a Destiny and that world would be a very dramatic one indeed by comparison without ours, rife with epic betrayals, and acts of heroism.

thrash · 10-08-2021, 11:55 AM

I imagine the biggest variable in such a world would be: how strong are individual Destinies? Is it possible to avoid a Bad End or fail to achieve a Good one?

Likewise, how specific is the information people have concerning their own Destinies? There's a huge difference between "you will be hit by a car and die," and "you will be hit by a red Audi convertible on Mill Avenue and University Boulevard at 5:55 pm on 29 October 2021, and die."

The recent anime "So I'm a Spider, So What?" had an interesting take on this subject. One character (a reincarnated school teacher) was given the ability to track the Destinies of a group of other characters (her former students). She was able to intervene in some of these cases and alter their Destinies, but in other cases she was either too late or nothing she did seemed to make a difference. The quasi-deity that gave her the ability did so mostly to torment her.

Curmudgeon · 10-08-2021, 12:32 PM

A Destiny doesn't have to be unusual or special, but it does have to happen. Unless it's a world like In Nomine where everybody has both a Destiny [good] and a Fate [evil], there will be little or no free will since all destinies must come to pass, so only the most trivial actions are unlikely to influence whether others achieve their destinies. Another effect if the destinies are immutable will be a world view at least somewhat like predestination, which may have an effect that people don't care about good and evil. You aren't necessarily a bad person because you murdered someone, after all you were destined to do it, but you are a murderer and if you're caught, you were destined to be caught and must be punished as you were destined to be.

If people know only their own destiny, they probably won't act much differently since they don't know their role in the destinies of others but, assuming destiny is immutable, they are likely to be fatalistic when they recognize that their destiny is at hand. There is no point in fighting it, or trying to avoid it, so just go with the flow and let it happen will likely be the attitude of most people.

Whether there was no Destiny where the PCs came from or whether they were recruited after they had fulfilled their Destiny on their own world is, I would think, irrelevant to immigration. Either Destiny is built into the universe they are immigrating to, or the gods enforce Destiny on the universe. In either event the characters probably can't immigrate without picking up a Destiny relevant to the destination universe, whether they previously had one or not and regardless of whether they believe in Destiny or not. If a Destiny can't be enforced on them, they may find that they just can't immigrate. (In effect, the universe tears up their passport/visa application.)

If Destiny is part and parcel of this universe, the PCs can't do anything to derail it as a condition. They can't introduce free will because the universe doesn't permit it, i.e., you can't introduce something which not only doesn't exist but can't exist within the universe. Introducing freedom on the other hand, won't prevent people having a Destiny or free them from it. It may create some new destinies going forward, but that isn't the same thing as free will.

About the only way the characters might alter/free people's connection with Destiny is if Destiny is enforced by the gods. In that case, they might be able to challenge a single god on the destiny of a single person and win. I use Primal Order for statting the gods in my campaigns and I wouldn't fancy a PC's chances in such a conflict. If every destiny comes from some god, they probably have some sort of non-compete, non-interference agreement in place between them, so it's not likely that the PCs can recruit another god to help them out.

Short answer, I think it's a novel setting but probably not to my taste.

David Johnston2 · 10-08-2021, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

A Destiny doesn't have to be unusual or special,

Yeah it does. Destiny is an advantage or a disadvantage. If everyone has a "destiny" but most of them are nothing special then that isn't Destiny. It's just predestination.

ericthered · 10-08-2021, 12:49 PM

I mean, the most INTERESTING version of this world is one in which every person has a single destiny, which is something specific yet flexible like "will rule England one day", "Will die due to betrayal", "will kill their own father", or "Will be renowned for something they bake".

Everyone gets this destiny revealed as part of a ceremony shortly after birth, and then they have to go on living their lives. People will try not to run afoul of destiny, as destiny is normally impassive but can get quite agitated if you are intentionally trying to break it.

From the point of the view of Destiny (I mean, the GM) you probably want a number of small and easily fulfilled destinies to make other destinies work out. Which leads to the dark side of destiny: usually it involves other people getting caught up in the cogs to make the unlikely thing happen.

Michael Cule · 10-08-2021, 04:38 PM

I possibly shouldn't have posted this in the GURPS section if people are going to assume that the only Destiny model is the standard GURPS model.

I'm thinking of a world where everybody knows that they were born to do a thing. (Let's make it everyone who makes it to the walking on your own and talking stage.) They may not know what that thing is but every time they miss death by a fraction they say "I see that I still have something to do."

Whenever someone gets a Reading of their Destiny the seer always finds one. (Until the PCs arrive.) Even if only a few people bother to find out their Destiny everyone knows they have one.

I don't know if it's necessary for it to be given by the Gods: I don't know that Gods are needed in such a world. It's just there. It's as much part of the world as Gravity and Gravy.

Do the people there feel trapped?

Do they resent the fact that they have a limit on their agency?

What philosophies do they develop?

(I'm thrashing around trying to get a fix on a set of ideas I'm developing. You may see a few more posts like this in the weeks to come.)

Not another shrubbery · 10-08-2021, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

A world in which everyone has a Destiny is unworkable. The whole point of Destiny is that you are going to do something special or unusual. If everyone has a Destiny, then nobody has a Destiny. You could have a setting where, say, one in a hundred people be born with a Destiny and that world would be a very dramatic one indeed by comparison without ours, rife with epic betrayals, and acts of heroism.

I think you're right that it would be too much work to have *everybody* in a setting with that particular ability (whether ad or disad). Maybe you could make it interesting by wainscoting the idea so that you only encounter some of the fated characters, or drop the 'normal' PCs in a Magical Land (where I would still suggest limiting the number of the fated).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Cule

I possibly shouldn't have posted this in the GURPS section if people are going to assume that the only Destiny model is the standard GURPS model.

Well. if you aren't interested in exploring it wrt GURPS mechanics, then you might ask to move the thread to Roleplaying in General.

Michael Cule · 10-09-2021, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Well. if you aren't interested in exploring it wrt GURPS mechanics, then you might ask to move the thread to Roleplaying in General.

I am pursuing this question both there and in other places. But what I was asking here was: imagine a world in which this advantage is universal, a basic commonplace. What sort of people, what sort of cultures would that produce?

Telling me that what I was proposing was 'impossible' and not the way the rules work... seemed to miss the point of GURPS and the point of what I was asking.

Mark Caliber · 10-09-2021, 11:38 AM

Abstractly for a bit.

All "Destinies" are advantages so that means that the destinies will be thought of favorably.

Additionally, you've mentioned that the game world has a Seership mechanic where anyone interested can learn what their Destiny is.

If Destiny is positive, then those Seers will become busy, as people seek out to learn their destiny.

The act of learning your destiny may even be a ceremony of disclosure. Maybe even a "blessing" of some sort?

Well, since these "Destinies" are knowable, they in part, become guideposts or even goalposts. (They're advantages, right)?

My first thought is that you've kind of described Patriarchal Blessings as performed in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/...sings?lang=eng

So those are some factors to consider as to how a society might handle such "Destinies" (even though it's not the same, there may be some similarities for you to check out).

However, I'm guessing that the GURPS Destiny Advantage is somewhat more "compelling?"

Sociologically, I think that individuals in such a civilization would look forward to fulfilling their Destiny. Most people will find that completing their Destiny as a high point to life. They may regale others with fantastic retellings and tales about how they fulfilled their "Destiny."

Great or small fulfilling a Destiny will be celebrated, recorded, and repeated.

Culture and media will be centered around showing off great actors who have fulfilled an amazing Destiny! (Big and small)!

So what happens when strangers show up with out Destiny?

I think that would cause some confusion. "What do you mean you don't have a Destiny? EVERYONE has a Destiny! Why don't you prepare yourself to learn your Destiny? There are Sages for this kind of thing."

So that's one possible way to handle this. I'll check in later and see if I can put another spin on this topic.

10-08-2021, 10:36 AM	#1
Michael Cule Join Date: Jul 2005	Destiny: What would a world dominated by it look like? The latest episode of the podcast has me and Roger wittering about Destiny and him expressing his dislike of the GURPS rule on the topic. Which led to me thinking about the idea that you can have a preset Destiny for good or ill and it collided with an idea about running a portal fantasy. I'm wondering what a world where everybody has a Destiny would look like. Where everybody knows what their Destiny is... because it's easy to find out. How would people live? And what would be the effect if the player characters were immigrants from a world where either there is no Destiny or all of them were recruited as they lay dying, their Destiny behind them. How would they discover the strangeness of the new world? How could they break the binding on the people of this world to bring them something like freedom? (Apologies to those who don't like metaphysics.) __________________ Michael Cule, Genius for Hire, Gaming Dinosaur Second Class

10-08-2021, 11:05 AM	#2
David Johnston2 Join Date: Dec 2007	Re: Destiny: What would a world dominated by it look like? A world in which everyone has a Destiny is unworkable. The whole point of Destiny is that you are going to do something special or unusual. If everyone has a Destiny, then nobody has a Destiny. You could have a setting where, say, one in a hundred people be born with a Destiny and that world would be a very dramatic one indeed by comparison without ours, rife with epic betrayals, and acts of heroism.

10-08-2021, 11:55 AM	#3
thrash Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: traveller	Re: Destiny: What would a world dominated by it look like? I imagine the biggest variable in such a world would be: how strong are individual Destinies? Is it possible to avoid a Bad End or fail to achieve a Good one? Likewise, how specific is the information people have concerning their own Destinies? There's a huge difference between "you will be hit by a car and die," and "you will be hit by a red Audi convertible on Mill Avenue and University Boulevard at 5:55 pm on 29 October 2021, and die." The recent anime "So I'm a Spider, So What?" had an interesting take on this subject. One character (a reincarnated school teacher) was given the ability to track the Destinies of a group of other characters (her former students). She was able to intervene in some of these cases and alter their Destinies, but in other cases she was either too late or nothing she did seemed to make a difference. The quasi-deity that gave her the ability did so mostly to torment her.

10-08-2021, 12:32 PM	#4
Curmudgeon Join Date: Sep 2011	Re: Destiny: What would a world dominated by it look like? A Destiny doesn't have to be unusual or special, but it does have to happen. Unless it's a world like In Nomine where everybody has both a Destiny [good] and a Fate [evil], there will be little or no free will since all destinies must come to pass, so only the most trivial actions are unlikely to influence whether others achieve their destinies. Another effect if the destinies are immutable will be a world view at least somewhat like predestination, which may have an effect that people don't care about good and evil. You aren't necessarily a bad person because you murdered someone, after all you were destined to do it, but you are a murderer and if you're caught, you were destined to be caught and must be punished as you were destined to be. If people know only their own destiny, they probably won't act much differently since they don't know their role in the destinies of others but, assuming destiny is immutable, they are likely to be fatalistic when they recognize that their destiny is at hand. There is no point in fighting it, or trying to avoid it, so just go with the flow and let it happen will likely be the attitude of most people. Whether there was no Destiny where the PCs came from or whether they were recruited after they had fulfilled their Destiny on their own world is, I would think, irrelevant to immigration. Either Destiny is built into the universe they are immigrating to, or the gods enforce Destiny on the universe. In either event the characters probably can't immigrate without picking up a Destiny relevant to the destination universe, whether they previously had one or not and regardless of whether they believe in Destiny or not. If a Destiny can't be enforced on them, they may find that they just can't immigrate. (In effect, the universe tears up their passport/visa application.) If Destiny is part and parcel of this universe, the PCs can't do anything to derail it as a condition. They can't introduce free will because the universe doesn't permit it, i.e., you can't introduce something which not only doesn't exist but can't exist within the universe. Introducing freedom on the other hand, won't prevent people having a Destiny or free them from it. It may create some new destinies going forward, but that isn't the same thing as free will. About the only way the characters might alter/free people's connection with Destiny is if Destiny is enforced by the gods. In that case, they might be able to challenge a single god on the destiny of a single person and win. I use Primal Order for statting the gods in my campaigns and I wouldn't fancy a PC's chances in such a conflict. If every destiny comes from some god, they probably have some sort of non-compete, non-interference agreement in place between them, so it's not likely that the PCs can recruit another god to help them out. Short answer, I think it's a novel setting but probably not to my taste.

10-08-2021, 12:49 PM	#6
ericthered Hero of Democracy Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: far from the ocean	Re: Destiny: What would a world dominated by it look like? I mean, the most INTERESTING version of this world is one in which every person has a single destiny, which is something specific yet flexible like "will rule England one day", "Will die due to betrayal", "will kill their own father", or "Will be renowned for something they bake". Everyone gets this destiny revealed as part of a ceremony shortly after birth, and then they have to go on living their lives. People will try not to run afoul of destiny, as destiny is normally impassive but can get quite agitated if you are intentionally trying to break it. From the point of the view of Destiny (I mean, the GM) you probably want a number of small and easily fulfilled destinies to make other destinies work out. Which leads to the dark side of destiny: usually it involves other people getting caught up in the cogs to make the unlikely thing happen. __________________ Be helpful, not pedantic Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!

10-08-2021, 04:38 PM	#7
Michael Cule Join Date: Jul 2005	Re: Destiny: What would a world dominated by it look like? I possibly shouldn't have posted this in the GURPS section if people are going to assume that the only Destiny model is the standard GURPS model. I'm thinking of a world where everybody knows that they were born to do a thing. (Let's make it everyone who makes it to the walking on your own and talking stage.) They may not know what that thing is but every time they miss death by a fraction they say "I see that I still have something to do." Whenever someone gets a Reading of their Destiny the seer always finds one. (Until the PCs arrive.) Even if only a few people bother to find out their Destiny everyone knows they have one. I don't know if it's necessary for it to be given by the Gods: I don't know that Gods are needed in such a world. It's just there. It's as much part of the world as Gravity and Gravy. Do the people there feel trapped? Do they resent the fact that they have a limit on their agency? What philosophies do they develop? (I'm thrashing around trying to get a fix on a set of ideas I'm developing. You may see a few more posts like this in the weeks to come.) __________________ Michael Cule, Genius for Hire, Gaming Dinosaur Second Class

10-09-2021, 11:38 AM	#10
Mark Caliber Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Central Florida	Re: Destiny: What would a world dominated by it look like? Abstractly for a bit. All "Destinies" are advantages so that means that the destinies will be thought of favorably. Additionally, you've mentioned that the game world has a Seership mechanic where anyone interested can learn what their Destiny is. If Destiny is positive, then those Seers will become busy, as people seek out to learn their destiny. The act of learning your destiny may even be a ceremony of disclosure. Maybe even a "blessing" of some sort? Well, since these "Destinies" are knowable, they in part, become guideposts or even goalposts. (They're advantages, right)? My first thought is that you've kind of described Patriarchal Blessings as performed in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/...sings?lang=eng So those are some factors to consider as to how a society might handle such "Destinies" (even though it's not the same, there may be some similarities for you to check out). However, I'm guessing that the GURPS Destiny Advantage is somewhat more "compelling?" Sociologically, I think that individuals in such a civilization would look forward to fulfilling their Destiny. Most people will find that completing their Destiny as a high point to life. They may regale others with fantastic retellings and tales about how they fulfilled their "Destiny." Great or small fulfilling a Destiny will be celebrated, recorded, and repeated. Culture and media will be centered around showing off great actors who have fulfilled an amazing Destiny! (Big and small)! So what happens when strangers show up with out Destiny? I think that would cause some confusion. "What do you mean you don't have a Destiny? EVERYONE has a Destiny! Why don't you prepare yourself to learn your Destiny? There are Sages for this kind of thing." So that's one possible way to handle this. I'll check in later and see if I can put another spin on this topic. __________________ (Censored)