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Old 03-26-2012, 03:16 PM   #81
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Default Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?

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Originally Posted by beetle496 View Post
Here's my two requests:

(1) Embrace truly digital native publishing: ePub or iBook. I would pay the prices you are asking on e23 prices for electronic formats that were actually robust.
Are you aware that SJGames is actually a very small company with only a handful of full-time employees? They can barely keep their cash cow (Munchkin) in print. Who do you suppose will do all the work to publish GURPS books as ePubs?

Also what happens to the layout of the books when you do this? If you get rid of the columns what happens to the page references? What happens to the box text?

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(2) Hook up with a print-on-demand publisher: I would pay your e23 prices for hardcopy mailed to me. I will not pay what you are asking for PDFs.
They apparently aren't pleased with the low quality control currently available in POD. They've wanted to do in-house POD for awhile (to the extent of having the space available for it) but I think this is another man-power problem.
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:29 PM   #82
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Default Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?

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Originally Posted by beetle496 View Post
I have to say this though: PDF is a lousy choice for an electronic format!
Excpe for many many thing you are overlooking

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
On references:

The reason why we prefer "see p. B113" (for instance) is that it uses fewer words than "see the Onset limitation," never mind "see Exposure Time under the Onset limitation." Where a number of relevant topics occur throughout content defined by a page range rather than a unique section title, it's much quicker to say simply "see pp. B472-473" than "see every section titled Complexity in Chapter 17." Brevity is good for comprehension; the longer the interruption, the larger the percentage of readers who will end up rereading and becoming frustrated with the work. Equally important is the fact that there are hundreds of such references in each GURPS book, and word count matters when editing and printing a book.

The main reason why we dislike case numbering is mainly that we polled our customers about it and they came down roundly against the idea. The secondary reason is the one already given: Typical readers unfamiliar with case numbering find references that use it to be overwhelmingly inferior to those that use page numbering. Page numbers are part of the experience of almost every reader. Case numbers are familiar to lawyers, wargamers, and perhaps one or two other rarified groups.

Hyperlinks would indeed be faster and more intuitive than all of the above. They're also unsuitable for a published work that isn't wholly available in a digital format that supports links, and entirely useless to customers who print their PDFs.

For the time being, then, references to absolute page numbers are deemed favorable by both the majority of customers and the publisher. They're also one of our primary ties to PDF. It's safe to say that the PDF format isn't going away, and that as tablets mature, they'll support PDF more seamlessly. This is definitely a question of hardware evolution, though. Changing the way we publish books isn't the solution . . . We could make changes, but these might well prove to be bad decisions on future hardware. By holding firm on publishing standards, like page numbers and the PDF format, publishers can influence hardware manufacturers. The arrow of influence should not point the other way, as digital readers exist to facilitate the use of publications; publications do not exist as a means of justifying digital readers.
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Originally Posted by September 22, 2010: Why PDF?
Over on the e23 section of the Steve Jackson Games forums, one question that's arisen is: "Why does e23 still release our products solely as PDFs when there are other electronic options out there?"

As a preliminary aside, note that these answers aren't "ex cathedra"; they don't represent the closing of all other possibilities unto the end of days. Technology constantly evolves, and data formats and communication techniques are a moving target. (I still chuckle when I read old GURPS books that proudly proclaim how you can contact our bulletin board with a 300-baud modem.) Still, they're our best guesses for how things are, and will likely be for a while.

So why do we use PDF? Because, simply, it works. It's not an ideal format in all cases, but it serves a large enough audience well enough that there are no other serious contenders. First, it's an excellent format for printing -- which many of our customers do. It's also quite readable on computer screens, especially large ones. For e-book readers that support the PDF format, our documents generally do well. (This may seem obvious, but it's good to point out: Because our PDFs aren't too complex or filled with hideously elaborate backgrounds, the tiny processors on PDF-capable e-book readers can handle most of our supplements just fine.)

"But why," you might ask, "can't you release the PDF and also release a version of the book formatted in another way (a horizontal screen-friendly PDF, an electronic-book format, or the like)?" Simply put, cost. For obvious reasons, the need to lay out a book twice would result in twice as much layout work -- which, in turn, would increase the final cost of the PDF by a lot. We put a great deal of care into the layout of our supplements, and we wouldn't be content to do a slapdash conversion to an alternate format.

In addition, almost all of our supplements lose functionality if we tried to release them in another format; most e-book formats rely on being able to reflow dynamically, which would break page references and indexes. (Sure, this isn't a huge problem within one book, but how do you handle a reference to another book, like "See Acid on p. 428 of the GURPS Basic Set"? It's not insurmountable, but it's still annoying.) Dynamic reflowing also seldom works well for tables, sidebars, and artwork.

Still, there's another reason. The ability to read and consume PDFs is only getting better. I purchased a computer screen several years ago that could rotate 90 degrees, to view full pages in a portrait mode. Nowadays, that same monitor would cost a third of what I paid -- although it's largely moot, because computer resolution and screen size has improved so radically. Today, it's easier and cheaper to buy a widescreen monitor and read two pages side by side, like a real book! Similarly, I often read our PDFs on the iPad, and it's a delight. The technology to read PDFs is only going to get better as the years go by.

In a lot of ways, I envision the PDF filetype -- at least for RPGs and other table-heavy layout-dependent material -- to be a lot like the MP3 format. Just over 10 years ago, the MP3 was solely the domain of big, clunky computers. A few years later, it was the format for expensive dedicated units. Today, devices that support MP3s are everywhere; I received one that was literally free a couple of years ago (it was built into a gift card at no additional cost). A high-quality MP3 from 1996 still plays fine today, and it'll play fine for decades to come on thousands of devices; the same can't be said for proprietary or unusual audio formats that have come and gone in the intervening years. Similarly, PDFs have proven to be a resilient format, and I can still use a dozen different programs to read PDF files from a decade ago; I suspect I'll be able to have them projected directly into my eyeballs with the high-tech Retina-Etch Display System to be built into the sixth-generation iPad.

Or, if I want, I'll still be able to print them, too . . . and they'll look great.

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Last edited by roguebfl; 03-26-2012 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:48 PM   #83
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Default Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?

My top of the head prediction: Not before 2025... I'm not sure we'd have gotten 4th yet if not for the D20 over reaction by the game ndustry, and most of that was "We have to sell hardback books!"
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Old 03-26-2012, 04:42 PM   #84
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Default Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?

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Originally Posted by beetle496 View Post
Arbitrary (context insensitive) "page" breaks on something that only ever lives electronically?
...
Also, SJG charges too much for PDFs. I have to pay for the ink and paper,
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Old 03-26-2012, 05:18 PM   #85
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Default Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?

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Originally Posted by stankkyzer View Post
Hello Dracodruid, fans are still happy with GURPS 4e, there is no need of 5th edition is coming soon.
You do realize this thread was created five years ago, right?
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Old 03-26-2012, 05:21 PM   #86
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Default Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?

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Originally Posted by beetle496 View Post
I have to say this though: PDF is a lousy choice for an electronic format! It is great for printing, but lousy for use on-screen (tablet or otherwise).
To paraphrase Winston Churchill, PDF is absolutely the worst possible format... except for all the others. eBooks have to serve many masters, and the only format that does so with any amount of usability and grace is PDF. There are better formats for eReaders. There are better formats for reading on computer screens. There are even better formats for printing. But there is no better format for doing all three in one, and for a small company they cannot afford to republish their ebooks into multiple formats, so you choose the lesser of all the evils, which is PDF.
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Old 03-26-2012, 05:23 PM   #87
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Default Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?

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Originally Posted by Alacrity Fitzhugh View Post
You do realize this thread was created five years ago, right?
The question keeps coming back - I'm glad that it keeps coming back in the same thread.

And, even five years later, there is still no need for a 5th edition any time soon.
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:38 PM   #88
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Default Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?

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The question keeps coming back - I'm glad that it keeps coming back in the same thread.

And, even five years later, there is still no need for a 5th edition any time soon.
Of course this really isn't about that anymore, but rather about pdf versus some other format.
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:40 PM   #89
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Default Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?

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Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
To paraphrase Winston Churchill, PDF is absolutely the worst possible format... except for all the others. eBooks have to serve many masters, and the only format that does so with any amount of usability and grace is PDF. There are better formats for eReaders. There are better formats for reading on computer screens. There are even better formats for printing. But there is no better format for doing all three in one, and for a small company they cannot afford to republish their ebooks into multiple formats, so you choose the lesser of all the evils, which is PDF.
This for PDFs.
I can read GURPS PDFs on my HTC Hero, a phone several years old.
I can also read them on my computer or print them out and am pretty content that no other format will work as well on all 3 mediums.
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:29 AM   #90
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Default Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Of course this really isn't about that anymore, but rather about pdf versus some other format.
And that question keeps coming back, too... <sigh>

What is this Need some people have for the newest thing when the older thing it's intended to replace still works?
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