Is a 5th Edition coming soon? [Answer: NO, it isn't!]

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Can't you raise to the 1/3th power on a scientific calculator?

I can, but I never claimed that double optional rule (which I don't think I ever actually used; at least not on any vehicle that actually saw play) makes GURPS unplayable.

[Anaraxes]

People upset by cube roots are going to be even more freaked out by raising to fractional powers.

[TorgSmith]

I suspect that many of the complaints about math in GURPS are the in game math. The wounding modifier of 1.5 for pi+ and cut needing to be calculated for each attack that penetrates and armor dividers greater that 2 that need to be done to see how much damages penetrates are probable some of the main issues. Ranged attacks require a table lookup for distance and speed of target then you need to add accuracy, bracing, and turns of aiming. This after needing to calculate how many turns you need to ready and aim.

These things do not bother me as I feel it adds to the combat at a tactical sense. The math during the character development is insignificant in my mind as that is out of game play. It helps that I use the Character Assistant and don’t need to do much work at all other than pick stuff. Now picking stuff is a real chore as there is so much to pick from. :)

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by TorgSmith

I suspect that many of the complaints about math in GURPS are the in game math. The wounding modifier of 1.5 for pi+ and cut needing to be calculated for each attack that penetrates and armor dividers greater that 2 that need to be done to see how much damages penetrates are probable some of the main issues. Ranged attacks require a table lookup for distance and speed of target then you need to add accuracy, bracing, and turns of aiming. This after needing to calculate how many turns you need to ready and aim.

Maybe, but I have trouble believing most people consider table look-ups and multiplying by 1.5 to be hard math. Most of the complaints I've heard that start out about GURPS being too math heavy usually go out of their way to mention Vehicles at some point, which tells me that the person is literally looking for an excuse to dislike GURPS. Unfortunately, when a meme like that exists there will be people who have never opened a GURPS book that will happily believe it and/or repeat it.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Most of the complaints I've heard that start out about GURPS being too math heavy usually go out of their way to mention Vehicles at some point, which tells me that the person is literally looking for an excuse to dislike GURPS.

And usually cube roots come up, so it's not just Vehicles, it's a double double optional rule in Vehicles. Haters got to hate, as they say.

[TorgSmith]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Maybe, but I have trouble believing most people consider table look-ups and multiplying by 1.5 to be hard math. Most of the complaints I've heard that start out about GURPS being too math heavy usually go out of their way to mention Vehicles at some point, which tells me that the person is literally looking for an excuse to dislike GURPS. Unfortunately, when a meme like that exists there will be people who have never opened a GURPS book that will happily believe it and/or repeat it.

The bolding of text above by me. I think hard math is not the issue. I think most the math done at game time is trivial. The math I pointed out above is simple. The problem (one I do not think needs solving) is some people hate any math beyond adding two numbers or subtracting two numbers.

I have checked out quite a few games and they all have tables and simple arithmetic. Numbers work best at defining limits. The main purpose of a character in any game is to define limits to what the player can do. All games have math in them. Well I have not checked out any of those diceless games. Personally, I do not have an issue with the math in the game.

I am practicing combats during lunch in my office with a couple guys at work. One guy is not in an engineering job so math is not used a lot. I am sure he has to work with numbers as his job uses computers. He has commented about the math. Now I think this is partially my fault as I want to get a good feel for the RAW and am spending time getting in all the modifiers. Once I get more used to them I will be able to group them quicker and better to reduce some of the math exposed to the players.

Basically I think the GM has a major impact on the perception of the game. I think the GM needs to know the comfort level of each player to math and plan accordingly.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by TorgSmith

The bolding of text above by me. I think hard math is not the issue. I think most the math done at game time is trivial. The math I pointed out above is simple. The problem (one I do not think needs solving) is some people hate any math beyond adding two numbers or subtracting two numbers.

I've heard "GURPS sucks cause you have to do cube roots to play it." I've never heard "GURPS sucks because you have to halve and double stuff to play it." You have to halve and double stuff in almost every popular RPG, you definitely have to do it in D&D.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I've heard "GURPS sucks cause you have to do cube roots to play it." I've never heard "GURPS sucks because you have to halve and double stuff to play it." You have to halve and double stuff in almost every popular RPG, you definitely have to do it in D&D.

Heck, it was original D&D that taught me how to calculate 10 percent of something, when I was in grade school.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by TorgSmith

I think hard math is not the issue. I think most the math done at game time is trivial. The math I pointed out above is simple. The problem (one I do not think needs solving) is some people hate any math beyond adding two numbers or subtracting two numbers.

The people I game with who aren't fond of GURPS have never been anywhere near Vehicles, but consider GURPS "Number-crunchy". There seem to be two aspects to this:

One is simple: you need to add up at least three numbers - the 3d6. For some, that's distinctly harder than two, and perceived pressure when everyone else is doing it instantly makes them react against the idea.

The other is that there's the wounding modifier step that comes into even the simplest demo combat, unless the GM deals with it silently, and people teaching GURPS tend not to do that. That's extra steps, which creates a fear that there will be more and more of them, with harder arithmetic, as you learn more of the game. That isn't true, but it's a natural expectation from parallels with other games.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by johndallman

The people I game with who aren't fond of GURPS have never been anywhere near Vehicles, but consider GURPS "Number-crunchy". There seem to be two aspects to this:

One is simple: you need to add up at least three numbers - the 3d6. For some, that's distinctly harder than two, and perceived pressure when everyone else is doing it instantly makes them react against the idea.

But they're cool with the D6 per caster level of spells like Fireball? That's usually more than 3.

The other is that there's the wounding modifier step that comes into even the simplest demo combat, unless the GM deals with it silently, and people teaching GURPS tend not to do that. That's extra steps, which creates a fear that there will be more and more of them, with harder arithmetic, as you learn more of the game. That isn't true, but it's a natural expectation from parallels with other games.

In D&D two handed weapon damage gets multiplied by 1.5. Damage when you save is often halved. Critical hits double or triple damage. That's not even getting into spell effects. D&D has just as much multiplication in play as GURPS, IMO.