Immunity to Metabolic Hazards and Pressure, Radiation and Temperature

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yep. That's exactly right.

Well now GURPS Zombies seems to have introduced this:

Originally Posted by Zombies page 54

Metabolic Hazards: Assists against the effects of altitude, disease, poison, pressure, radiation, and temperature if DR doesn’t protect and there’s a HT roll to resist, whether failure means injury or affliction (attribute penalty, disadvantage, nausea, etc.). Any zombie might have this trait at the +3 level (10 points) or even the +8 level (15 points), but only undead, unliving constructs, and solidified spirits can possess Immunity (30 points). Immunity doesn’t shield the zombie’s structure from pressure, radiation, or temperature, which can cause brittleness and cracks. When a HT roll is required for such a hazard, roll at +15 and apply modifiers for intensity (only). Even critical failure means no damage or affliction, but any failure costs the zombie one level of HT permanently. To reduce this risk, add Pressure Support, Radiation Tolerance, and/or Temperature Tolerance.

1. Not everything with Immunity to Metabolic Hazards [30] has Unhealing [-20], so why is the HT loss permanent? A normal person can recover from the injury caused by Pressure, the FP and HP loss caused by extremes of temperature and sometimes the effects of Radiation (As long as you don't roll D or E effect), why does buying a 30 point advantage mean you can no longer recover?

2. Someone with an effective HT 16+ (from Resistant to Metabolic Hazards +8, or maybe just a high HT) and the same temperature comfort range will suffer much less significant effects than someone with Immunity to Metabolic Hazards when being slightly outside their temperature comfort range. e.g:

A has HT 10 and Immunity to Metabolic Hazards [30]
B has HT 10 and Resistant to Metabolic Hazards +8 [15] half the price!

Both have temperature comfort range y to x. Temperature is y-1 or x+1. Both only fail on 17-18, but when A fails he loses 1 point of HT permanently, but when B fails he only loses a point of Fatigue temporarily.

3. Permanent HT loss is bad, really bad, but it's not actually fatal. This means that a zombie or a machine exposed to absolute zero, a trillion Rads or trillion atmospheres of pressure will rapidly drop to HT 0, then suffer no more negative effects. They would still be functional.

4. What happens regarding temperature if I have Doesn't Breath [20], Doesn't Eat or Drink [10] FP N/A [0], but no Immunity to Metabolic Hazards [30]? Just what does Being exempt from all involuntary FP drains protect against? Losing FP to extremes of temperature seems pretty involuntary.

5. What was wrong with using the normal Pressure rules? I mean there were issues with Immunity to Metabolic Hazards granting infinite levels of Temperature Tolerance, and immunity to radiation cheaper than the best Radiation Tolerance and Regeneration: (Radiation only) could do, but the old rules for Pressure meant that things with Immunity to Metabolic Hazards (that didn't have Pressure support 3) that were placed under great pressure would be immune to the bends but still take HP injury until utterly crushed. Under the new rules no matter how vast the pressure, they just lose HT until they drop to 0, then limp around in terrible health forever (until aging rolls get them.)

6. Many robot templates are now outdated by these rules; e.g. C31R07 has neither Radiation Tolerance nor Temperature Tolerance, in Reign of Steel: Will to Live only the TNU-05 Eater has Radiation Tolerance and only the XAU-08 Tarantula has Temperature Tolerance. Which means if you expose these robots to even 1 rad one day later there's a 1-in-54 chance their physical structure will start breaking down. Or temperatures below 35F or above 90F for more than 30 minutes. Just what are these Robots made of???

7. Given that Immunity to Metabolic Hazards doesn't protect from non-metabolic hazards presumably doesn't protect against frostbite:

Originally Posted by High-tech page 63

Frostbite is acute somatic damage to exposed flesh caused by freezing. It’s distinct from FP and HP losses to hypothermia (see Cold, p. B430), which represent metabolic damage. The two effects can and often do occur simultaneously! At the GM’s option, those exposed to freezing conditions lose 1 HP on any exposed hit location per FP lost to cold. This can cripple extremities or even limbs, and is cumulative with injury due to hypothermia.

Both zombies and machines tend to have Immunity to Metabolic Hazards (and Injury tolerance: No Blood and Unliving, and FP N/A), does this mean both zombies and machines are still susceptible to frostbite?

[Nereidalbel]

1. Notice that the permanent HT loss is for ZOMBIES. Not everything to ever have ItMH, just zombies.

2. Frostbite for a zombie may not kill tissue (I mean, it's already undead!, but, a zombie would still freeze and gain Fragile: Brittle. Machines with any kind of fluids must worry about said fluids freezing, while those without fluids or lubricants need only worry about the cold making them too brittle to use.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

1. Notice that the permanent HT loss is for ZOMBIES. Not everything to ever have ItMH, just zombies.

If you pay the same price and have the same advantages, you should use the same rules. Unless there's a 0-point feature, but those are supposed to be as advantageous as they are disadvantageous.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

If you pay the same price and have the same advantages, you should use the same rules. Unless there's a 0-point feature, but those are supposed to be as advantageous as they are disadvantageous.

Zombies also have Unhealing. Saying the HT loss is permanent is simply redundant. Also, notice that zombies neither take injury nor suffer affliction, even on critical failures.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Zombies also have Unhealing. Saying the HT loss is permanent is simply redundant.

Did you miss the part where I said: "Not everything with Immunity to Metabolic Hazards [30] has Unhealing [-20]"? Most but not all Zombies have Unhealing. Whether they have Unhealing is a setting dependant question. To quote GURPS Zombies:
"Undead zombies and solidified spirits are almost always Unhealing."

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Also, notice that zombies neither take injury nor suffer affliction, even on critical failures.

...You didn't read my post did you? I specifically called out the fact that zombies only suffer HT loss and gave plenty of examples of cases where this raised questions.

[Agent]

Looks like some unfortunate changes so far.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Agent

Looks like some unfortunate changes so far.

You are going to have to unpack that, I'm afraid.

[Nereidalbel]

I think the important thing being missed here is that ZOMBIES suffer the permanent HT loss, not living things.

[Agent]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

You are going to have to unpack that, I'm afraid.

Do what?

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

I think the important thing being missed here is that ZOMBIES suffer the permanent HT loss, not living things.

It's not being missed...

Do you mean to suggest the entire new write-up should be ignored except for zombies? Seems odd. Far more-so seems to be a 'patch' on exactly the thing the OP indicated: 'Non-Metabolic Effects of Temperature ('N Such)'

So the implications remain that this aught to apply to machines and whatever else with ItMH in some capacity. Machines for example often/usually have Unhealing because they need their 'HT loss' and damage repaired. Machine Meta-Trait. So this is quite similar to zombies.

NDD pointed out various manifestations of strangeness here, if you will.

For those with ItMH without 'the package', I guess the +15 is supposed to translate as a uber-bonus versus FP loss when the non-metabolic-ish hazard comes up? Temp HT loss? Or what?

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Agent

Do what?



It's not being missed...

Do you mean to suggest the entire new write-up should be ignored except for zombies? Seems odd. Far more-so seems to be a 'patch' on exactly the thing the OP indicated: 'Non-Metabolic Effects of Temperature ('N Such)'

So the implications remain that this aught to apply to machines and whatever else with ItMH in some capacity. Machines for example often/usually have Unhealing because they need their 'HT loss' and damage repaired. Machine Meta-Trait. So this is quite similar to zombies.

NDD pointed out various manifestations of strangeness here, if you will.

For those with ItMH without 'the package', I guess the +15 is supposed to translate as a uber-bonus versus FP loss when the non-metabolic-ish hazard comes up? Temp HT loss? Or what?

R
Zombies and machines lose HT instead of FP because they have the FP Null trait, meaning they lose HT whenever exertion or hazards would normally cost FP.