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Old 02-20-2011, 11:30 AM   #11
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Big Fights and Long Fights in GURPS

After a brief skim, it'sn t clear to me what the exact formula is. Gef seems to imply that some stats are weighted double before the average is taken.

I'm particularly concerned about how DR is weighted. Even DR 1, if it doesn't have the "Can't Wear Armour" Limitation, should make a huge difference.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:46 AM   #12
Dunadin777
 
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Default Re: Big Fights and Long Fights in GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
After a brief skim, it'sn t clear to me what the exact formula is. Gef seems to imply that some stats are weighted double before the average is taken.
My first post didn't layout the actual Combat Value formula too well, but Post #5, which refined it, laid it out better, IMO. Gef's statement that ST is double-weighted is because ST and HP each factor into the formula seperately, and because a defensive skill could do double-duty as an offensive skill. If I was looking at a build where the primary attack and defend skills were the same(melee weapon skills, for instance), I'd probably count the defend option at half value. I didn't post that guideline because I'm not too confident in it, as it's a number off the hip.

Quote:
I'm particularly concerned about how DR is weighted. Even DR 1, if it doesn't have the "Can't Wear Armour" Limitation, should make a huge difference.
DR is a big deal. Just one DR without limitations can turn a unit that would be Raw troop quality into the match for an Elite quality unit. Some might see this as a big advantage for 1 DR, but I think that natural DR should probably affect large-scale more than small-scale conflict.

For convenience, here's the relevant bits from post #5, which has the Big Fight guidelines REDUX

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunadin777 View Post
Find Combat Value(CV)= (ST + HP + Attack skill + Defense skill + Soldier skill)/5
Multiply Combat Value by a half factor for every point of natural DR, modified proportionately for limitations.
...snip...

Quote:
Notes: DR for armor is not figured into this estimation, because equipment is a separate, more easily defined entity, and because equipped armor has more disadvantages built into it as regards encumbrance, chinks, etc.

Also, the reasoning for the DR cost factor is that since natural DR is pretty much going to reduce every hit, a mere DR 2 will give a creature that many more chances to attack and attract a disproportionate amount of attention. The cost factors also ensure that nearly any creature with DR 8 or more is probably going to be treated as a solo monster in Mass Combat, which would ignore many average damage rolls that don't have some armor piercing ability.
As for the soldier skill, I'd consider weighting it by counting it double and then dividing the formula by 6 instead of 5, but I think that'd be counter-intuitive. Military training is primarily concerned with extensive, repetitive, and pervasive drilling that I'd interpret as being primarily concerned with developing Soldier as a skill, meaning that they are trying to develop a good score in that skill. But if the Soldier skill is particularly weighted to achieve combat effectiveness, less Soldier skill is needed to achieve Average and higher levels of Troop Quality, which I find undesirable.

For the moment, I prefer the current dealing with Soldier skill--it has some effect on combat prowess, but it makes all the difference for combat units to gain and maintain the lessons of combat experience.

But I could certainly be wrong. :)
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:47 AM   #13
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Default Re: Big Fights and Long Fights in GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
Gef seems to imply that some stats are weighted double before the average is taken.
ST and HP are included in the average; since HP normally equals ST, I call that double counting. Likewise, "defensive" and "offensive" skill can be the same skill, again double credit. You'd use you highest weapon skill to parry, after all, and still get the benefit of a shield if you hold one, or even hang it around your neck.

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Old 02-20-2011, 12:19 PM   #14
Dunadin777
 
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Default Re: Big Fights and Long Fights in GURPS

Big Fights: Worked Examples

So here's some example write-ups using the Big Fight guidelines from post #5 above.

Note: in my current campaign, IQ 9 is standard IQ, not 10. For these examples, however, I will keep such things RAW for simplicity's sake.

Heavy Infantry Soldier(Human), based on Historical Folks 4e
ST:12 HP:14 Attack skill(broadsword):12 Defense skill(shield):12 Soldier skill:11
This gives a CV of 12.2, which corresponds to high average Troop Quality. That sounds reasonable to me, since the template PC will have experienced a handful of battles, and the stats above evoke a fairly experienced soldier to me.

Heavy Infantry Soldier(Dwarf), as above, with the following template applied
Dverg(Dwarf) Template(relevant parts): ST -1, DX +1, IQ +1, HP +3
ST:11 HP:16 Attack:13 Defense:13 Soldier:12
This gives a dwarf Heavy Infantryman, with equivalent training and experience to the above human, a CV of 13, giving him the same TS as a Seasoned quality unit. Since this boost is due to him being a Dwarf, however, I'd say that he is actually a just above average unit relative to other units of his race(this means he can potentially advance one quality further than human units)

Heavy Infantry Soldier(Berserker), as the first example, with the following changes
Norheimer Berserk Template: ST +4, DX +1, IQ -1, HP +1, and he uses a claymore exclusively in combat
ST:16 HP:15 Attack(claymore):13 Defend(claymore):13 Soldier:10
This gives a CV of 13.4, or the middle of Seasoned quality.
Or, if halving the defense characteristic of the claymore, it gives CV 12.2, making him an average unit, just like the first entry.


Remember, these equivalencies do not take equipment into account. Once equipment modifiers from Mass Combat are applied, the dwarf's TS would go up, and the berserker would drop.
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Finds party's farmboy-helper about to skewer the captive brigand who attacked his sister.

"I don't think I'm morally obligated to stop this..."
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Last edited by Dunadin777; 03-28-2011 at 12:00 PM. Reason: Adjusted for CV changes
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Old 02-20-2011, 02:17 PM   #15
Dunadin777
 
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Default Re: Big Fights and Long Fights in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Dunadin777 View Post
Or, if halving the defense characteristic of the claymore, it gives CV 12.2, making him a Seasoned unit, just like the first entry.


Remember, these equivalencies do not take equipment into account. Once equipment modifiers from Mass Combat are applied, the dwarf's TS would go up, and the berserker would drop.
Thinking a bit more about the above issue of melee weapon skills doubling as defense skills, I'd go with this method(if a skill is serving double duty, it counts at half value for the second function). This makes it so that a good melee skill can serve 'one-and-a-half duty', and I decided this fits for a couple of reasons. For one, Shield skills are Easy difficulty, and hence easier to build up anyways, so investing in them is easy--this is less appropriate for Character generation, but more just a way of informing the realism check. The other, more important reason is that taking Shield as a skill should be a waste of training unless you have a shield equipped, and then it is giving an equipment bonus(as part of overall equipment quality in Mass Combat).

I still don't think ST or HP should be adjusted downwards in importance, though. If one does a realism check by looking at military training throughout the ages, physical conditioning for fitness and pain/discomfort tolerance have always been key. In particular, I think it fitting that ST feels a bit more important in Mass Combat than most GURPS players think it is in GURPS tactical combat. ST determines HP, true, but it also deals damage and informs encumbrance.

Encumbrance is huge in mass engagements--it determines what equipment you can bring to battle, and how much it affects your performance. For this reason, I think that ST and HP might still merit seperate-duty in higher TLs until power armor comes into play--the more death you can carry, the better your combat performance. And your encumbrance, and the related issue of how quickly you fatigue in battle, plays into how long you can effectively fight.

The issues in the above paragraph rarely affect tactical GURPS combat, so I think that makes RPG players see its importance here and think something is off. ST isn't all that important when combat comes one-second at a time, but when you fight battles that take the better part of a day, it's essential.
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:25 PM   #16
Gef
 
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Default Re: Big Fights and Long Fights in GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunadin777 View Post
If one does a realism check by looking at military training throughout the ages, physical conditioning for fitness...
Good point, and that's as true of endurance as of strength, especially in long battles, or marching and then fighting. Endurance is rated by fatigue, modified by the advantage (Very) Fit. I've read that Harold's men had a forced march from northern England to the battle of Hastings,, and that it contributed to their defeat. Yes, they held while they kept order and only started losing when they broke ranks to harry the withdrawing Normans, but tiredness contributes to impatience nd poor judgment.

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Old 02-20-2011, 07:08 PM   #17
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Big Fights and Long Fights in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Dunadin777 View Post
DR is a big deal. Just one DR without limitations can turn a unit that would be Raw troop quality into the match for an Elite quality unit. Some might see this as a big advantage for 1 DR, but I think that natural DR should probably affect large-scale more than small-scale conflict.
Okay, it sounds like you have things under control, then. I'm not sure about the large-scale vs small-scale ting, about where DR is more important. Offhand I'd say it is equally important in all cases.

A case can also be made that innate DR affects light units more than heavy units, because heavy units are already heavily armoured, and so one more DR, or 2 more DR, won't do much, but on a light unit, armour DR might be 1 or 2, or even zero, and so a mere +1 DR bonus from natural armour would make a huge difference, especially with regards to casualties. And morale.
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Old 02-20-2011, 07:29 PM   #18
Dunadin777
 
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Default Re: Big Fights and Long Fights in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
A case can also be made that innate DR affects light units more than heavy units, because heavy units are already heavily armoured, and so one more DR, or 2 more DR, won't do much, but on a light unit, armour DR might be 1 or 2, or even zero, and so a mere +1 DR bonus from natural armour would make a huge difference, especially with regards to casualties. And morale.
Well, my understanding is that in large-scale warfare, most of the effective casualties are due to limb shots and hits to weak-points in armor. Since limb-crippling is based on major wounds, 1 or 2 extra DR can make the difference between a solid hit and a dismembering one, especially when it helps buffer head-shots. And, with attacking armor chinks, an extra 1 or 2 DR might negate most of the benefits of hitting those gaps in equipped DR. Another factor with natural DR is that it can't be stripped away in the melee of war, like a helmet or shield can. Historically, even breastplates were known to get stripped away after lucky hits severed straps and latches.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:29 PM   #19
Gef
 
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Default Re: Big Fights and Long Fights in GURPS

Why not just treat thick hide as built-in "equipment" for monsters? -GEF
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:21 AM   #20
Dunadin777
 
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Why not just treat thick hide as built-in "equipment" for monsters? -GEF
For the same reasons why natural DR gets such weight above, it also deserves to be dealt with seperately. In Mass Combat, the TS multiplier accounts for things like chinks in armor and extra encumbrance. These factors drastically reduce the effectiveness of combatants in large-scale conflict. Having just light encumbrance, for instance, means you can fight a long battle only half as long as an unencumbered counter-part. So, if you were a man wearing light plate armor fighting an oghre with equivalent stats but built-in DR equal to plate armor, then you'd be at a serious disadvantage--in tactical combat and in Mass Combat.

Also, equipment's effects stack on top of Troop Quality, so it would be rather confusing if you had a naked oghre monster who had no actual equipment but had 'built-in' equipment that he couldn't lose.
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Finds party's farmboy-helper about to skewer the captive brigand who attacked his sister.

"I don't think I'm morally obligated to stop this..."
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