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Old 09-20-2009, 03:45 PM   #41
Dalillama
 
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Default Re: Are Calabim obvious?

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Originally Posted by Acolyte View Post
Quibble: Superiors don't necessarily spend Essence to make Vessels. It's unknown how or from what Superiors make Vessels (as with many Superior things), only that it takes something from them (time or resources) better spent elsewhere. Ethereals make Vessels from Essence, and even weak Ethereals have the ability to do this. Superiors might operate in a similar way, but I doubt it (Superiors have such extreme Essence reservoirs from Tethers/torturing damned souls/the activities of their Principalities or Cathedrals that if they used the same Essence costs as Ethereals for Vessels, Vessels would be much more freely given away by them).
The LR notes that any Celestial can make a Vessel out of a sufficient quantity of primordial clay, which substance is noted to be very rare and hard to get. Perhaps Superiors have a way of makeing it, or a large supply from which they draw new Vessels. OTOH, Celestials can also make Vessels with sufficient Essence when in Limbo, so perhaps Superior simply have a lot of draws on their time/power and don't want to spend it making new Vessels all the time.
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Old 09-20-2009, 04:59 PM   #42
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Default Re: Are Calabim obvious?

That idea was actually forwarded by me. Taking the economics of Essence vs vessel creation from Heaven and Hell, one can easily extrapolate that whether it is Essence or not, likely a similar expenditure of time, energy, discomfort is involved in vessel creation.

Yeah, they have huge reservoirs. They also have huge demands on their time/energy/attention.

Otherwise, why don't they give every Celestial who comes to Earth a six pack of vessels, ala Paranoia? Answer, they can't or they find it not cost effective.

The exact details of vessel creation don't matter. The existance of the economics behind it does.
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Old 09-21-2009, 09:24 PM   #43
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Default Re: Are Calabim obvious?

It's probably safe to say that a Vessel is the equivalent of a couple hundred Essence for a Superior. Superiors have access to a LOT of Essence. I don't know everywhere they get it, but even if you just consider the Tethers, they build up Essence pretty quickly. But, even if it's not Essence, it's something else that clearly they can just do, but that if they "just did" too often, it might begin to be a drain.

I suspect that Archangels just include as part of their budget replacing vessels of Malakim. Everything is telling Malakim that they're supposed to be out there kicking butt and pushing themselves far enough that sometimes they get whacked. If a Superior didn't want Malakim to act that way, he'd make it clear; otherwise, he's got to expect that he's going to be replacing vessels for them far more often than for most others.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:10 AM   #44
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Default Re: Are Calabim obvious?

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If they have a spare vessel anyway, why didn't they just swap into that BEFORE they die? And they could spend ONE Essence to swap vessels on Earth...or spend two Essence to tranlate back to Earth. Hmm.
Nope. Pg. 53 of my edition: "Returning to the corporeal plane normally takes no time, Essence or Will rolls." To be honest, though, I didn't think of that until this morning, when I was looking something else up.
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:38 PM   #45
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Default Re: Are Calabim obvious?

Can you tell when that last hit is going to land? Maybe you can squeeze another shot in before you're capped. Malakim don't have to worry about that -- they can fight until they're taken out.

And plotwise, a Malakite getting sent back to its Heart with a Vessel to spare has just gotten a free ticket back to his military stronghold. If he descends again, he could quite possibly have three or six of his buddies coming with: the ones who don't bother spending points on Roles and spend them on Vessel/6s and gun skills, instead. In GURPS, it could be very handy to invest a few points in a couple of Favors (fellow Malakite, same point value, 12 or less) [2] to represent the ability to have some authority to whistle up a few allies.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:05 PM   #46
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Default Re: Are Calabim obvious?

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I suspect that Archangels just include as part of their budget replacing vessels of Malakim.
It's also worth pointing out that, economically speaking, a single Malakite vessel loss was probably accompanied by an even higher loss of infernal vessels. Malakim may be expensive, but Heaven is probably going to beat Hell when it comes down to raw economics

(Think of the Cold War, where the United States basically won by forcing Russia in to bankruptcy keeping up :))
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:48 AM   #47
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Default Re: Are Calabim obvious?

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Can you tell when that last hit is going to land? Maybe you can squeeze another shot in before you're capped. Malakim don't have to worry about that -- they can fight until they're taken out.
Why wait? Once I get down to 'starry vision and I'm dropping things', it's time to switch vessels, not risk losing one.


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And plotwise, a Malakite getting sent back to its Heart with a Vessel to spare has just gotten a free ticket back to his military stronghold. If he descends again, he could quite possibly have three or six of his buddies coming with: the ones who don't bother spending points on Roles and spend them on Vessel/6s and gun skills, instead. In GURPS, it could be very handy to invest a few points in a couple of Favors (fellow Malakite, same point value, 12 or less) [2] to represent the ability to have some authority to whistle up a few allies.
Do you see where that would essentially be making Malakim essentially unbeatable?

Look at it from the Demon's perspective: Fight, get weakened, kill, have him show up 6 seconds later with 6 more guys.

How then does Heaven NOT automatically win? Every combat with a Malakim means the demon loses, period. What angel, much less Malakim, won't hope on the chance to gang up on a demon for a few minutes?

Which is why I would insist on the transit time. The Malakim are overly aggressive anyway for their power. With this interpretaion anyone except for Storytellers and Method Actors, who would pick anything else?

They should fight aggressively because they think it important, NOT because they can bounce back in two seconds to win.

I think this is a bad rule. I have no problem with them avoiding Trauma, i.e. being out of the game for a few days. I DO have a problem with them avoiding transit time. Otherwise all the Malakim will load up on spare vessels and fight foolishly, pretending to be a Celestial yo yo.

This is, in my opinion, bad for the characters and bad for the game.

Last edited by JCD; 09-23-2009 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:51 AM   #48
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Default Re: Are Calabim obvious?

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Originally Posted by Rocket Man View Post
Nope. Pg. 53 of my edition: "Returning to the corporeal plane normally takes no time, Essence or Will rolls." To be honest, though, I didn't think of that until this morning, when I was looking something else up.
Eh. I read it as predicated on them leaving the spot in the normal fashion, but I concede the point. They even mention they get their pick of vessels.
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:56 AM   #49
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Default Re: Are Calabim obvious?

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It's also worth pointing out that, economically speaking, a single Malakite vessel loss was probably accompanied by an even higher loss of infernal vessels. Malakim may be expensive, but Heaven is probably going to beat Hell when it comes down to raw economics

(Think of the Cold War, where the United States basically won by forcing Russia in to bankruptcy keeping up :))
Meh. What are you basing that on? As has been noted before, they are no better at combat then a Mercurian with similar Songs and Skills.
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Old 09-23-2009, 09:19 AM   #50
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Default Re: Are Calabim obvious?

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Do you see where that would essentially be making Malakim essentially unbeatable?

Look at it from the Demon's perspective: Fight, get weakened, kill, have him show up 6 seconds later with 6 more guys.

How then does Heaven NOT automatically win? Every combat with a Malakim means the demon loses, period. What angel, much less Malakim, won't hope on the chance to gang up on a demon for a few minutes?
Makes their fearsome reputation among Hell a lot more sensible, doesn't it? *wink*

OK, it is a good question. Here's my take on it:

1) A sensible demon does everything it can to avoid a fight with a Malakite, and gets the hell out of Dodge (pardon the phrase) if it looks like it has an opening for even a moment.

2) Not all battles in the War can be won by beating up on demons. There's a lot of cases where excessive violence -- especially in public -- may make matters worse: traumatizing a child who was Destined to be a Soldier of God, fixing an event in public memory that causes humanity to create a Tether to Nightmares or Death, or even something as simple as having the Malakim be in the wrong place beating up minor scum while the REAL demonic operation goes on across town.

If you're a demonic force with a number of Malakim in the region, your model is Vietnam. The other side has heavier firepower than you can hope to match ... so you do your darndest to create situations where that firepower means nothing.

And, to return to the putative subject of this thread, if that means sending a couple of noisy Calabim to draw the Virtues' attention while your Impudites, Shedim and Balseraphs are creating quieter long-term damage ... well, that's probably an acceptable trade-off from Hell's standpoint.
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