Powered by GURPS... Dungeon Fantasy?

[Christopher R. Rice]

I'd add my "It's a Threat!" rules to that pile because it near removes the need for a GURPS GM to balance an encounter in DF. You consult one set of numbers to another and then move forward. That's a huge stumbling block removed for newbie GMs.

[kmunoz]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I'd add my "It's a Threat!" rules to that pile because it near removes the need for a GURPS GM to balance an encounter in DF. You consult one set of numbers to another and then move forward. That's a huge stumbling block removed for newbie GMs.

I feel like the "It's A Threat" rules are too complicated and time-consuming for a starter set. Maybe something simpler like DPS calculation.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by kmunoz

I feel like the "It's A Threat" rules are too complicated and time-consuming for a starter set. Maybe something simpler like DPS calculation.

I wasn't talking about having those calculations for monsters - but have them furnished for the critters and a quick guide for the classes. The one thing I always hear about GURPS from newbies is combat and how they keep doing a TPK. Eliminate that problem and you've opened a bigger market.

[Celti]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

• Some of the templates in DF1, namely Cleric, Knight, Thief, and Wizard. Maybe one or two of the others, like Barbarian or Scout. The templates have fewer options, and the spellcasters pick spell lists.

Don't prune the options on the templates that are included (I can foresee lots of backlash for that one) — but you still want to make it easy to get-up-and-go, so include some 97%-complete pre-generated characters (I'd suggest two per template, each representing one of the archetypes in the customisation notes) that have everything assigned except for five quirks (and, of course, the points you get from those quirks).

That lets you, for your very first adventure, get going quickly, with optimized archetypic characters, but still get a taste for GURPS character customisation (and arguably the best part of it). Then the next time around they can settle into using the full template. The third go-round, they buy DF01 because they want to branch out into other professions, and so it goes.

I'd probably toss some of the best examples from Power-Ups 6 into the tailored GURPS Lite, just so they get an idea of how quirks work.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I wasn't talking about having those calculations for monsters - but have them furnished for the critters and a quick guide for the classes. The one thing I always hear about GURPS from newbies is combat and how they keep doing a TPK. Eliminate that problem and you've opened a bigger market.

I'm not sure how much of these "Newb TPKs" are down to power mismatch between the monsters and PCs and how much is expectation mismatch between "We're the heroes we don't need to runaway" mentality of D&D and the realities of GURPS combat.

[kmunoz]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I'm not sure how much of these "Newb TPKs" are down to power mismatch between the monsters and PCs and how much is expectation mismatch between "We're the heroes we don't need to runaway" mentality of D&D and the realities of GURPS combat.

Yeah I think that's the bigger issue. However, we are talking about a Dungeon Fantasy starter. One would tend to assume that "no running away" is a general expectation of the genre.

[kmunoz]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I wasn't talking about having those calculations for monsters - but have them furnished for the critters and a quick guide for the classes. The one thing I always hear about GURPS from newbies is combat and how they keep doing a TPK. Eliminate that problem and you've opened a bigger market.

Agreed.

However, it does surface a significant weakness of GURPS: the opacity of the stats for NPCs and monsters. I don't mean opacity in the sense of playability, but in terms of knowing at a glance how dangerous something is. Which, in turn, makes it extremely difficult to design monsters unless you have a lot of practice.

Part of it comes from the nature of the skill system, sadly. I don't think a lot of players (forum denizens excluded) really appreciate that the difference between Skill-9 and Skill-10 (and between Skill-10 and Skill-11) is a 12.5% increase in rate of success.* A PC with Broadsword-10 doing 1d+1 damage is phenomenally outmatched by a monster with Bite-12 doing the same amount of damage. (All other things being equal.) The DPS of the PC is 2.25 (average result of 1d+1 being 4.5, with a 50% chance of hitting, gets you 2.25). The DPS of the monster is 3.33 (74.1% of 4.5). The monster on average does a whole point of damage more each second than the PC! That's craziness.

That's why I think for a quick and dirty, eyeball-y sort of solution, compare DPS. It impresses upon the mind how significant minor differences in skill level really are.

*I'm using the probabilities listed in RAW, though they're not precise, because it's after midnight and I need sleep.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by kmunoz

One would tend to assume that "no running away" is a general expectation of the genre.

Not in computerized RPGs and not in old editions of D&D. "Run away! We can't fight that!" is practically a battle cry.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

Not in computerized RPGs and not in old editions of D&D. "Run away! We can't fight that!" is practically a battle cry.

Agreed.

I don't consider "not running away" to be a requirement of hack 'n' slash fantasy. Heck, Running Away is a core rules concept in our very own Munchkin! The inability of some players to recognize an unwinnable battle and retreat is an issue that can't be solved through threat ratings.

The biggest problem with any numerical threat-rating system is that it's inevitably blind to swingy behavior caused not merely by freak dice rolls but also by players invoking single-use items and abilities. What's the fair rating for a monster that will cause a TPK if someone doesn't use their Wish item but be a cakewalk if someone does use that item? How does such an item factor into the PCs' value under such a system when the impetus to use it is perhaps 90% emotion and 10% strategy at most gaming tables, particularly among newbie gamers who've never played a resource-management or tactical-combat game before? How does the GM plan ahead even to know the item will still be around – not used earlier, lost, sold, etc. – when the PCs finally reach that encounter? And how does a writer creating a dungeon adventure know which such items and abilities a given group will have?

Usually, the space on the page is better used for qualitative and occasionally hand-holding advice to new GMs on how to learn their art and adjust an adventure on the fly.

[Kalzazz]

One thing that is hard in RPGs I find as a player is figuring out how strong something is or is not! Humans and dragons for instance range from ineffectual couch potatoes up to 10th Dan black belts and arch mages

Is that skeleton yonder the second coming of the grim reaper or confetti waiting to happen?

The most reliable method of guaging enemy threat is to throw down and see what happens

More explicit advice on 'how to tell what you can fight' would be helpful

Munchkin after all puts the monsters level right on the card! A lot of computer games have a 'consider' command