There is only Lite

[Anthony]

Off of the Alternate GURPS thread: ponder adjusting skill lists so that Lite is everything (I think I have to add Profession as a catchall), and what to do with the excess. The skill list:

• Accounting -> Profession(Business)
• Acrobatics
• Acting
• Administration -> Profession(Business)
• Alchemy -> Natural Sciences or Profession(Alchemist)
• Anthropology -> Social Sciences
• Archeology -> Social Sciences
• Architecture -> Profession(Architect) or Social Sciences.
• Artillery -> Missile Weapon
• Artist -> change to Art, and becomes a category skill for all creative arts.
• Astronomy -> Natural Sciences
• Autohypnosis -> excuse to buy advantages such as High Pain Threshold
• Bartender -> Profession
• Beam Weapons -> in Lite, but can still be moved into Missile Weapon
• Bicycling -> Vehicle Skills (Human-Powered vehicles should have a special note)
• Bioengineering -> Natural Sciences
• Blind Fighting -> excuse to buy advantages such as Scanning Sense.
• Blowpipe -> Missile Weapon
• Boating -> Vehicle Skills
• Body Control -> excuse to buy advantages such as Fit.
• Body Language -> excuse to buy Empathy, Criminology(Detect Lies), or increased active defenses.
• Body Sense -> delete, just take a limitation on Warp if it stuns you for a turn after you arrive.
• Bolas -> Missile Weapon
• Bow -> Missile Weapon
• Boxing -> Brawling + Blunt Claws.
• Brainwashing -> Influence Skill
• Breaking Blow -> excuse to buy Innate Attack.
• Breath Control -> Excuse to buy Fit and Breath-Holding
• Camouflage (I'd fold this into Stealth, but it's in Lite)
• Carpentry -> Profession
• Cartography -> Navigation, or sometimes Profession.
• Chemistry -> Natural Science
• Cloak -> probably junk the skill, or fold into Melee Weapon.
• Computer Hacking -> Computer Programming.
• Computer Programming
• Connoisseur -> generally fold into Savoir-Fair.
• Cooking -> Profession
• Counterfeiting -> Forgery (expand the skill)
• Crossbow -> Missile Weapons
• Cryptography -> hm... not easy.
• Current Affairs -> Area Knowledge.
• Dancing -> Humanities (or a generic Art skill)
• Detect Lies -> Criminology.
• Diagnosis -> I would delete and merge with Physician, but it's in Lite.
• Diplomacy -> Influence Skill
• Dreaming -> Occultism or excuse for advantages such as Deep Sleeper.
• Driving -> Vehicle Skill
• Dropping -> Missile Weapons
• Economics -> Social Sciences or just default off of Profession(Business)
• Electrician -> Mechanic or Electronics Repair
• Erotic Art -> Carousing or Profession
• Esoteric Medicine -> Physician or excuse for advantages such as Healing.
• Exorcism -> Occultism or excuse for advantages.
• Expert Skill -> probably keep.
• Falconry -> Animal Handling
• Farming -> Profession
• Fast-Draw -> I would delete these and turn them into weapon techniques for 'draw and attack'.
• Fast-Talk -> Influence Skill
• Filch -> Pickpocket
• Finance -> Social Science or Profession
• Fire Eating -> Profession
• Fishing -> Survival
• Flight -> Hiking (make Hiking generic Endurance Movement)
• Flying Leap -> Excuse to buy advantages, such as Super Jump.
• Forced Entry -> delete, or fold into Weapon Skills or Scrounging.
• Forensics -> Criminology
• Fortune-Telliing -> Occultism or Influence Skill (Fast-Talk)
• Forward Observer -> ? Perhaps Observation.
• Free Fall -> I would probably add a generic Environmental Adaptation advantage to allow buying off penalties for exotic environments.
• Freight Handling -> Profession
• Games -> Gambling, Hobby, or Profession.
• Gardening -> Profession
• Garrote -> Melee Weapons
• Geography -> Area Knowledge
• Geology -> Physical Sciences
• Gesture -> language
• Group Performance -> Performance
• Gunner -> Missile Weapons
• Guns -> Missile Weapons
• Hazardous Materials -> Profession, or default off of any skill (such as chemistry or medicine) that generates hazardous materials.
• Heraldry -> Area Knowledge
• Herb Lore -> Profession (Herbalist) or Physician
• Hidden Lore -> any relevant skill (usually area knowledge or social sciences) plus UB.
• History -> Social Science or Area Knowledge.
• Hobby Skill -> Keep
• Housekeeping -> Profession
• Hypnotism -> Occultism or powers
• Immovable Stance -> advantage
• Innate Attack -> Missile Weapons
• Intelligence Analysis -> Use the skill the intelligence is about, or Criminology to evaluate sources.
• Interrogation -> Criminology
• Intimidation -> Influence Skill
• Invisibility Art -> Advantage(Invisibility) with some limits.
• Jeweler -> Profession
• Judo -> Grappling (added skill)
• Knot-Tying -> Any relevant Profession. Tying up people is unclear but also not terribly related to good knots as such.
• Lance -> Melee Weapons, or maybe Ride.
• Lasso -> Missile Weapons
• Leatherworking -> Profession
• Lifting -> Delete, just buy Lifting ST (only for specific purposes)
• Light Walk -> Delete, just buy Stealth and/or Walk On Air (limited, must touch a surface)
• Linguistics -> Humanities
• Lip Reading -> perk? Language?
• Liquid Projector -> Missile Weapons
• Literature -> Humanities
• Machinist -> Mechanic or Profession
• Makeup -> Disguise
• Market Analysis -> Merchant or Profession
• Masonry -> Profession
• Meditation -> excuse to buy advantages.
• Mental Strength -> Will with limitations
• Metallurgy -> Physical Science
• Meteorology -> Physical Science
• Mimicry -> Acting
• Mind Block -> Resistant (Telepathy)
• Mount -> Riding (Being Ridden)
• Musical Composition -> Art
• Musical Influence -> excuse to buy powers.
• Musical Instrument -> Performance
• Naturalist -> Survival
• Net -> Missile Weapons
• Packing -> Profession
• Palentology -> Social Science
• Panhandling -> Fast Talk
• Parachuting -> Vehicle Skill
• Parry Missile Weapons -> Advantage
• Performance -> becomes a category skill covering all performance arts.
• Pharmacy -> Physician or Profession
• Philosophy -> Humanities
• Photography -> Art
• Physics -> Natural Science
• Physiology -> Physician
• Piloting -> Vehicle Skills
• Poetry -> Art (or Perform to deliver)
• Poisons -> Physician or Profession
• Politics -> Public Speaking or Diplomacy
• Power Blow -> Advantage (ST with limitations)
• Pressure Points -> Advantage (Affliction)
• Pressure Secrets -> Advantage (Claws)
• Professional Skill: add, along with generic rules for use professional skills to make money or items of value.
• Propaganda -> Influence Skill
• Prospecting -> Profession
• Psychology -> Social Science
• Push -> Advantage (ST with limitations)
• Running -> Advantage (basic move)
• Savoir-Faire -> Cultural Familiarity or Influence Skill
• Scuba -> Environmental Suit
• Sewing -> Profession
• Sex Appeal -> Influence Skill or Carousing
• Singing -> Performance
• Skating -> Vehicle Skills (Human-Powered vehicles should have a special note)
• Skiing -> Vehicle Skills (Human-Powered vehicles should have a special note)
• Sleight of Hand -> Pickpocket
• Sling -> Missile Weapons
• Smith -> Profession
• Sociology -> Social Sciences
• Soldier -> Profession
• Spacer -> Profession
• Spear Thrower -> Missile Weapons
• Speed-Reading -> Advantage
• Sports -> Hobby
• Stage Combat -> Performance
• Strategy -> Tactics
• Streetwise -> Area Knowledge or Cultural Familiarity (Criminal)
• Sumo Wrestling -> Grappling (added skill)
• Surgery -> Physician
• Symbol Drawing -> Occultism
• Teaching -> Profession
• Teamster -> Profession
• Thaumatology -> Occultism
• Theology -> Occultism
• Throwing Art -> Innate Attack (object of opportunity)
• Typing -> Writing
• Urban Survival -> Survival
• Ventriloquism -> Acting
• Veterinary -> Physician (Animals)
• Weird Science -> Natural Science or advantage that lets you ignore the normal laws of reality.
• Wrestling -> Grappling (New Skill)
• Zen Archery -> high Bow skill

[apoc527]

I would be down with this project. I am particularly interested in cutting down on TECHNICAL skills with too many specializations. I understand it might be realistic, but it's also not very fun to play an engineer type in a sci-fi game because you can't do more than a tiny handful of things.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by apoc527

I would be down with this project. I am particularly interested in cutting down on TECHNICAL skills with too many specializations. I understand it might be realistic, but it's also not very fun to play an engineer type in a sci-fi game because you can't do more than a tiny handful of things.

I fully do agree with this note. It may be realistic, indeed, but it doesn't make GURPS skill list intuitive!

It even makes character creation sometimes quite hard. "You wan't an archaeologist? OK. You must have some knowledge in history... But what period do you want to know? - Antiquity. - Fine. Egypt? Greece? Rome? Aztecs? - All that! Like Indiana Jones. - Hey, that will make a lot of different skills!"

While, during this time, a scientist who want to know Physics only have one skill to know all the fields covered by it...

So, here, the realism argument is really lowered. History may realistically have to be split in different sub-skills... But, in that case, why does Physics allow someone to be highly skilled in every topics of this very broad science with only one skill, and why does Computer operation allow someone to know all computer languages with only one skill too?

Furthermore, the argument of game play which would say that History is more useful than Physics in adventures would neither be a good one. Mahtematics is also split in different subskills and is not very useful. Who ever designed a character with Mathematics (pure)-14 or more?

Note that I'm not at all saying that Computer operation and Physics have to be split like History and Mathematics! To the contrary. I'm really wondering why History and Mathematics require so much realistic detail in a roleplaying game... Unless playing a university campaign where characters are students who have to choose wisely their classes in order to improve their chance of passing their exam... And even in that case... I really doubt it is useful.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Gollum

I fully do agree with this note. It may be realistic, indeed, but it doesn't make GURPS skill list intuitive!

It even makes character creation sometimes quite hard. "You wan't an archaeologist? OK. You must have some knowledge in history... But what period do you want to know? - Antiquity. - Fine. Egypt? Greece? Rome? Aztecs? - All that! Like Indiana Jones. - Hey, that will make a lot of different skills!"

While, during this time, a scientist who want to know Physics only have one skill to know all the fields covered by it...

Physics and Biology (the 2 most often referenced single Skills covering large fields) are both Very Hard skills. As per Basic, at TL6+ both usually have an Optional Speciality for the specific sub-fields. Each Optional Speciality would be a Hard Skill [B169], which would match up with the standard base for History, which is Hard and requires a Specialisation.

e.g. Physics (Optics), History (Egypt) and Biology (Ecology) would all be Hard Skills.

This would also point to an obvious solution - allow for a Very Hard History Skill which has no Specialisation (perhaps By Planet in an interstellar setting), and then Optional Specialisations for the standard Specialisations of Region or Era).
This should at least be balanced in a Lite Only setup.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by SCAR

Physics and Biology (the 2 most often referenced single Skills covering large fields) are both Very Hard skills. As per Basic, at TL6+ both usually have an Optional Speciality for the specific sub-fields. Each Optional Speciality would be a Hard Skill [B169], which would match up with the standard base for History, which is Hard and requires a Specialisation.

e.g. Physics (Optics), History (Egypt) and Biology (Ecology) would all be Hard Skills.

This would also point to an obvious solution - allow for a Very Hard History Skill which has no Specialisation (perhaps By Planet in an interstellar setting), and then Optional Specialisations for the standard Specialisations of Region or Era).
This should at least be balanced in a Lite Only setup.

Your solution makes a lot of sense, indeed!

But, precisely, what makes the actual list of skills so few intuitive is that: why are specializations an option for certain skills and a mandatory for other ones? Of course, the GM can change things, like you proposed it. He can also bundle several skills in a larger bang skill if he wishes (Science!)...

But for a new GM or a player who tries a new kind of character (my archaeologist example above is a true one!) the first answer given by the Basic Set sounds to be useless complexity... While other games simplify things like that. In the BRP system, for instance, Mathematics, Physics and History are three different skills which work exactly the same way. It is more simple, more intuitive and eventually makes more sense - both in terms of realism and game play (History is not supposed to be more complex than Physics or Biology and, thus, to require a different treatment).

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Your solution makes a lot of sense, indeed!

But, precisely, what makes the actual list of skills so few intuitive is that: why are specializations an option for certain skills and a mandatory for other ones? Of course, the GM can change things, like you proposed it. He can also bundle several skills in a larger bang skill if he wishes (Science!)...

But for a new GM or a player who tries a new kind of character (my archaeologist example above is a true one!) the first answer given by the Basic Set sounds to be useless complexity... While other games simplify things like that. In the BRP system, for instance, Mathematics, Physics and History are three different skills which work exactly the same way. It is more simple, more intuitive and eventually makes more sense - both in terms of realism and game play (History is not supposed to be more complex than Physics or Biology and, thus, to require a different treatment).

More than likely the differences are down to the 'historical' additions of each of these skill in earlier GURPS editions.
There were many Historical GURPS books for 3e, and many of them would likely have used the History skill, and rather than allowing a single History skill to cover Greece, Russia, Japan, China, Aztecs, etc., each probably added the appropriate Specialisation, which wasn't a particularly as formalised a mechanism as it is in 4e.

The Physics skills in 3e was Mental/Hard, at 4e it is Mental/Very Hard - which is probably because the skill was used in 3e as a general skill, and with the more clearly defined nature of Specialisation in 4e, it was probably shifted to be a Very Hard Skill, with optional Specialisations.
The Biology Skill did not exist at 3e, instead the individual Specialties had their own Skills, each of which was Mental/Hard: Botany, Ecology, Genetics, etc. The move to 4e consolidated them into a single Very Hard Skill with optional specialisations.

The TL part is also probably highly relevant. History as a Skill is basically the same at any TL (different knowledge obviously), but at TL5 or earlier, Biology and Physics were probably not generally broad enough to distinguish between the different specialisations.

During my schooling (TL8) I studied Physics (up to but not including University level) and I don't remember much specific distinguishing between different branches of Physics, I was just taught Physics, I have an A-Level in Physics, I know some mechanics, some optics, etc., (although I probably don't remember too much detail, it was a while ago!)

I'm sure Kromm could give a more detailed summary of why some skills were left with required Specialisations and other merged and given Optional Specialisations.

It does seem easier enough to adjust the Skill List by merging or breaking down each of those skills where relevant to create the desired level of Specialisation - which would seem to be the purpose of this thread!

[Gollum]

A great answer, SCAR! Thank you for it.

Actually, when I posted above, I had the third edition in mind. Indeed, as you noted it, History was only one skill as well as Physics in this edition... And I was wondering: why making it more complex. It worked well!

You are probably right about how it changed between the third and the fourth edition of GURPS. But something else have also changed: mathematics. In the third edition, it was only one skill too, and it becomes several sub-skills in the fourth one. Why? I don't see any good reason for that change. More realism? Maybe...

I fully do agree with you that things highly depend on the TL. In antiquity, it was for instance possible (hard, but possible) to become a universal genius: someone who knows almost everything about physics, biology, mathematics, etc. These sciences (or fields of knowledge) were not as developed as they are now. Nowadays, it is not anymore possible. Mathematics alone are so wide that no one can encompass them. Above a given expertise level, every mathematician has to choose a specialization...

But, if this is right for mathematics, it is also right about Physics and Biology... And we can guess that in a near future, the problem will be exactly the same with all things covered by computer programming... If not worse!

Furthermore, this mandatory of choosing a specialization also depends on the level of skill. If the character is not an expert, having only one skill is not at all all a problem. In high school, for instance, the same teacher usually teach all the history program, or all the physics program or all the mathematics program, to his pupils.

So, if the goal of GURPS fourth edition was to be really realistic, the required specialization would depend on the TL as well as on the level of expertise (which is what some roleplaying games do: in the Cortex system, for example, above the D6 level, you must choose a specialization, no matter the skill; and if you want several specializations, you can, but must spend the points for each one of them).

This is not what GURPS does, though...

That is why I really thing that it would be a good idea to correct GURPS skill list in order to make it more intuitive. Having skills which are not as broad as other make the game harder to play... And it is often useless. In a King Arthur's campaign, for instance, History would give very precise information (like knowing that a knight is the nephew of a king and so, probably, the one who kills the children of that king to inherit the throne...) while in a SF campaign, it would give much larger but less precise information, like the fact that the Klingons joined the Federation during year X and not year Y... The background of the campaign usually balances the extent of the field of knowledge.

And, to come back to the main topic of this thread, this is why I find Anthony's idea very good. GURPS Lite's skill list is much more intuitive and easy to use than GURPS Basic Set's one.

[Anthony]

Ugh, nothing like going through a list to remember just how many stupid little skills there are. My preferred scheme is to allow any skill to be variable levels of specificity -- something like:
All top-level skills are Very Hard, and will have subskills that are Hard, Average, or Easy. When defaulting, any child of a given skill defaults at 0 from that skill; any parent defaults at -2 per step away, any cousin defaults to the closest shared parent. Thus, you might have Melee Combat (VH) with something like One-handed, Two-handed, and Unarmed as Hard skills, individual weapons as Average skills, and maybe specialized things as Easy. Weapons that are easier or harder to use would get bonuses to hit rather than changes in skill difficulty.
This makes most skill vs skill defaults pretty easy, but the reality is that skills within a given category are pretty interchangeable so it's kind of fair. The defaults could be worse if, say, the cost curve for skills was different.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Ugh, nothing like going through a list to remember just how many stupid little skills there are. My preferred scheme is to allow any skill to be variable levels of specificity -- something like:
All top-level skills are Very Hard, and will have subskills that are Hard, Average, or Easy. When defaulting, any child of a given skill defaults at 0 from that skill; any parent defaults at -2 per step away, any cousin defaults to the closest shared parent. Thus, you might have Melee Combat (VH) with something like One-handed, Two-handed, and Unarmed as Hard skills, individual weapons as Average skills, and maybe specialized things as Easy. Weapons that are easier or harder to use would get bonuses to hit rather than changes in skill difficulty.
This makes most skill vs skill defaults pretty easy, but the reality is that skills within a given category are pretty interchangeable so it's kind of fair. The defaults could be worse if, say, the cost curve for skills was different.

That idea is a very great one... In theory. Because, in practice, it is not so much. Being a very good musician, for instance, don't make you good at playing all musical instruments. A highly skilled trumpet player is not necessarily good, or even quite good at playing the piano or the violin. Even if he is one of the most famous conductor and composer (Ennio Morriccone). Beyond the very basic children music, he isn't able to play other musical instruments than those he really learned.

I take the musical example, here, but there are a lot of other things like that...

That is why, in my humble opinion, little skills are not a problem. The problem is when some skills of a given category are not treated in the same way than other skills of the same category: Mathematics vs Physics, for instance. It is exactly like if Violin was one skill and Piano was cut in several sub-skills. Every one would immediately wonder: why? It is not interesting in term of realism (there are several kinds of violins too) and even less interesting in term of game play... Mathematics is not a skill which requires such detail in a roleplaying game designed to handle adventures!

Thus, I really think that a face-lift is required for a next edition of the game, if any comes sooner or later (5th edition, 4th edition revised, Compendium...). But just a face-lift. And taking GURPS Lite as a base to do it sounds a very good idea. GURPS Lite is a good face-list of GURPS rules... by definition!

Can we have the end of your list, please?

[arconom]

How broad is the ideal skill? The answer to that is likely a function of the number of uses of the skill that are expected to to occur during play. Obviously, a skill that cannot be gainfully used should cost 0 points. A skill that has a large effect per use should be worth more than a skill that has a small effect per use. The only effective way of measuring the effect of a skill (that I know of) is to calculate the number of successes required in order to complete the objective.

The more I think about it, the more I want to use a diceless mechanic.