[Fantasy] Zoroastrian, is Water White or Black?

[Puppetminion]

I'm hoping to use Zoroastrian magic from pg 227 of Fantasy in a game soon, but I hit a little snag.
Three colleges are missing from the list of which are White & which Black.
Technological, Water and Weather.

Tech should probably be neither (same as Gate) and all the Weather spells also belong to other colleges so dropping it is easy, but I'm not sure about the Water college. Black has 1 less whole college than White and 1 rather than 2 elemental colleges, so for game balance reasons it's probably supposed to be Black. Does that sound right? For that matter, does water magic sound more good or evil to people?

Another small question, the Black spells explicitly include Protection and Warning, but only Illusion (rather than Illusion & Creation). Given that in general black magic is often supposed to be only about illusion and not reality that could be a deliberate exclusion. So should I split Illusion and Creation into Illusion(black) and Creation(white) or just make the whole college black?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Puppetminion

For that matter, does water magic sound more good or evil to people?

I doubt that people who live in Persia and the Middle East could conceive of water as evil.

Another small question, the Black spells explicitly include Protection and Warning, but only Illusion (rather than Illusion & Creation). Given that in general black magic is often supposed to be only about illusion and not reality that could be a deliberate exclusion. So should I split Illusion and Creation into Illusion(black) and Creation(white) or just make the whole college black?

Magical creations seem to be the prescient of Ahriman, I'd think, since they are still a kind of illusion.

[Refplace]

I would go with water as black. It varies on Culture as life comes from water but water also represents cold, death and secrets. I am not a Zorastoran but I think Black is the best fit.
Truth is though if I were to use that I would likely just redo the whole system and break up spells differently.

Edit
It was pretty good for a quick breakdown and showing other options though.

[Puppetminion]

Two responses, both genuinely compelling and unfortunately contradictory.
I am now picturing a massive fight during the playtest of Fantasy over Water magic ending with "aargh, we'll just have to leave it out and hope no-one notices."

sir_pudding's point about creation is also a good one, I'm convinced.

Thanks guys, I may be still confused but at least it's on on a new and more informed level.

[Anaraxes]

Where do those world-destroying flood stories come from?

Nevertheless, Wikipedia says:

In Zoroastrianism, water (apo, aban) and fire (atar, adar) are agents of ritual purity, and the associated purification ceremonies are considered the basis of ritual life. In Zoroastrian cosmogony, water and fire are respectively the second and last primordial elements to have been created, and scripture considers fire to have its origin in the waters. Both water and fire are considered life-sustaining, and both water and fire are represented within the precinct of a fire temple. Zoroastrians usually pray in the presence of some form of fire (which can be considered evident in any source of light), and the culminating rite of the principle act of worship constitutes a "strengthening of the waters". Fire is considered a medium through which spiritual insight and wisdom is gained, and water is considered the source of that wisdom.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Where do those world-destroying flood stories come from?

In those stories the floods are sent by God or by the gods, though.

Nevertheless, Wikipedia says:

That too.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Nevertheless, Wikipedia says:

Looks compelling. If we take that as evidence to place Water in the White Magic College, then Weather, as a natural force and a mix of of Air and Water, seems likely to belong in White also. Technology feels like it may be inappropriate, like the Gate spells... if I had to guess, though, I'd put it in Black Magic.

A simple solution might be to just ask Bill himself.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Looks compelling. If we take that as evidence to place Water in the White Magic College, then Weather, as a natural force and a mix of of Air and Water, seems likely to belong in White also. Technology feels like it may be inappropriate, like the Gate spells... if I had to guess, though, I'd put it in Black Magic.

A simple solution might be to just ask Bill himself.

Actually, I had been following this and waiting till I had a chance to look at GURPS Fantasy carefully (it's been a few years since I wrote it!). I find the argument for including Water in White Magic compelling; I hadn't known that about the ritual status of water when I wrote that list. Generally magia is about the true forces of nature, though.

As for Tech, I don't think it includes any spells that are appropriate to the Parthian Empire. I would just ignore it. Unless you're doing a modern-day Zoroastrian system, and then I would split it up by subcollege: Energy would be White, but Radiation would be Dark, I think.

Bill Stoddard

[William]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I doubt that people who live in Persia and the Middle East could conceive of water as evil.

Tiamat, from Babylonian mythology. Primordial chaos entity embodying the mother-ocean; creator of monsters; slain by the hero Marduk.

GURPS Fantasy actually gives stats to an aspect of Tiamat. It's a 1200-point terror that, among other things, floods the entire nearby area.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Actually, I had been following this and waiting till I had a chance to look at GURPS Fantasy carefully (it's been a few years since I wrote it!). I find the argument for including Water in White Magic compelling; I hadn't known that about the ritual status of water when I wrote that list. Generally magia is about the true forces of nature, though.

As for Tech, I don't think it includes any spells that are appropriate to the Parthian Empire. I would just ignore it. Unless you're doing a modern-day Zoroastrian system, and then I would split it up by subcollege: Energy would be White, but Radiation would be Dark, I think.

Boss! TAL!

There ye go, gentlemen... straight from the horse's mouth, as it were. Now, place yer bets.
:)