Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-09-2016, 11:54 AM   #1
Captain Joy
 
Captain Joy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Heartland, U.S.A.
Default Strength Cost in High and Ultra Tech Campaigns

I'm considering lowing the character point cost of ST in my Star Trek campaign. But generally, how do people feel about reducing the cost of ST in campaigns where high strength is not so valuable? If you think repricing ST for such campaigns is a bad idea, why? If you think it's a good idea, what changes can you recommend.

My impression is that the sweet spot for the RAW cost of ST is Dungeon Fantasy type campaigns, but that there should be a campaign-switch-type alternate pricing for high tech and ultra tech campaigns within which damage dealing is rarely accomplish though muscle powered weapons.

Last edited by Captain Joy; 02-09-2016 at 02:02 PM.
Captain Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 12:54 PM   #2
weby
 
weby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default Re: Strength Cost in High and Ultra Tech Campaigns

It depends a lot on your type of scifi game, specially the point totals and what limits you have on attributes.

Basically lifting ST and HP are very valuable often in such games and given that lifting ST is exotic and hitpoints should not be more than ST +/- 30% in RAW, if you have the same limitations the ST is definitely worth it quite often, if you allow lifting ST and/or higher variations of HP then the value is lower.

Basic ST value is often wrong, it tends to be too high more often than too low. Things like super games have innate attack be cheaper, any game with low combat and gear load will have very low incentive for such and any game allowing buying lifting ST and more hit points and does not have melee combat will have low use for ST.

As specifically for Star Trek, the value is a lot less, due to not carrying much gear often, hitpoints being useless part of the time and so on. While Kirk seems to get into melee and unarmed combats quite often, the later Star Treks have somewhat less of such.

So for Startrek games I would likely not lower the price of ST, instead saying to players that it is a fairly useless attribute and no not buy it at all in most cases..
__________________
--
GURPS spaceship unofficial errata and thoughts: https://gsuc.roto.nu/
weby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 02:00 PM   #3
Maz
 
Maz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denmark
Default Re: Strength Cost in High and Ultra Tech Campaigns

ST one of the most useful attributes to have with no additional skill cost.

Even in Star Trek.
  • Have to grab hold of someone so they do not run away: Strength.
  • The ship has run into trouble and the powers off, you have to force the doors open: Strength.
  • Your on a planet suddenly there's a quake/bombardment, rubble falls and blocks the exist, how do you get out?: Strength.
  • One of your redshirts gets wounded, you have to carry him home: Strength.

On top of that there is unarmed combat and HP. I am not big on Star Trek but from what I see they get into enough situations where phasers can't help them, but Strength can.
Maz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 02:25 PM   #4
Mark Skarr
Forum Pervert
(If you have to ask . . .)
 
Mark Skarr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere high up.
Default Re: Strength Cost in High and Ultra Tech Campaigns

Use the Logarithmic ST from Pyramid #3-83. It overhauls ST from just about any perspective, and puts ST on the same scale as other attributes.
Mark Skarr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 02:34 PM   #5
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Strength Cost in High and Ultra Tech Campaigns

I would be more likely to change the whole chargen process than try and re-jigger just a few parts.

For something like Star Trek where beings with great personal ST sometimes show up )not just Kligons but Data too) but it wouldn't be worth the cost I'm more likely to go with chargen by concept and general power level achieved than just give everyone equal cp.

This also works in cases of conceivable Psionic Powers that cost too much for their actual effects. How much are Warp and Telecommunication worth when everyone has a transporter on their ship and surface to orbit communicator in the pockets?

ST that does fewer dice than common weapons is in the same boat.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 03:08 PM   #6
simply Nathan
formerly known as 'Kenneth Latrans'
 
simply Nathan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wyoming, Michigan
Default Re: Strength Cost in High and Ultra Tech Campaigns

Me, I don't see how high ST gives you all that much in High Tech or Ultra Tech campaigns and wouldn't be averse to simply halving the cost of all ST-related trains while imposing limits on ST levels based on the hardness level of the sci-fi and the nature of the character.

For Supers, extremely high ST is absolutely in-genre and the number of powers as well as amazing technologies reduce the usefulness of pure raw ST. I think a base price of 1/level or 2/level for ST in such campaigns would be perfectly reasonable and, as Bricks are the most basic archetype it'd probably be better to err on the side of building them being "too cheap" and "too easy" rather than the reverse.
__________________
Ba-weep granah wheep minibon. Wubba lubba dub dub.
simply Nathan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 03:29 PM   #7
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Strength Cost in High and Ultra Tech Campaigns

I've done various things to try and table that problem, with varying degrees of success.

My 'boarders from earth' game, set at safetech TL 10 has ST at 5/level. Due to genre settings, the exact technology, and the fact that they're fighting in cramped quarters, we've actually seen a lot of hand to hand combat and even grappling. Some folks went into ST rather heavily (the former pro-football player is NOT the strongest in the lineup). Its certainly been useful, but I'm not seeing that the 'ogre' type characters are doing any better than anyone else. In that game I wouldn't go any lower.

In the most extreme cases, where power armor and exoskeletons abound, I just handle high ST with an accessory perk and a legal immunity advantage if its extreme. Those are cases where power armor or other strength boosters are common place though.

I've used wounding systems instead of using HP RAW in a supers game (god slayers), and that helped -- if you had 100 points in ST, you were a lot harder to hurt without corresponding points in ST, but that campaign also nerfed equipment (including guns) in general.

I've often build racial templates where ST is quite high but artificially lowered, but most of the time that's wrapped in with other extenuating circumstances as well.

Though if I'm fair about all of this, I might be the sort of guy who thinks that ST should just be 5/level because I'm a tinkerer who doesn't see it getting a lot of bang for its buck. Even in fantasy and low tech games.
__________________
Be helpful, not pedantic

Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 04:16 PM   #8
Peter Knutsen
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Default Re: Strength Cost in High and Ultra Tech Campaigns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Joy View Post
I'm considering lowing the character point cost of ST in my Star Trek campaign. But generally, how do people feel about reducing the cost of ST in campaigns where high strength is not so valuable? If you think repricing ST for such campaigns is a bad idea, why? If you think it's a good idea, what changes can you recommend.

My impression is that the sweet spot for the RAW cost of ST is Dungeon Fantasy type campaigns, but that there should be a campaign-switch-type alternate pricing for high tech and ultra tech campaigns within which damage dealing is rarely accomplish though muscle powered weapons.
I'm thinking that yes, the cost of both ST and DR probably should change.

But the justifiation is reduced when one remembers that similar to Claws and some other "Exotic" combat-relevant advantages, you always have your ST (and your natural DR) with you, whereas weapons (and armour) must be put away some of the time, including for social rasons.

I don't know about DR, but for ST I could see a -20% worldwide discount in any High-Tech world, TL5-8, and -40% in any Ultra-Tech world, TL9-12, although a more detailed approach, based directly on TLs rather than on "Tech Eras", could be -10% at TL6, -20% at TL7-8, -30% at TL9-10 and -40% at TL11-12.
Peter Knutsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 04:18 PM   #9
Peter Knutsen
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Default Re: Strength Cost in High and Ultra Tech Campaigns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
This also works in cases of conceivable Psionic Powers that cost too much for their actual effects. How much are Warp and Telecommunication worth when everyone has a transporter on their ship and surface to orbit communicator in the pockets?
Warp and Telecommunication can probably be see as having an intrinsic UB component in GURPS Characters, one that needs to be removed from them when they are used in a world where transported and tiny long-range communicators are in common use.
Peter Knutsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 05:21 PM   #10
mlangsdorf
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Default Re: Strength Cost in High and Ultra Tech Campaigns

Like Eric the Red, I'm running a campaign that priced ST at 5 pts/level (HP are 2 pts/level, Lifting ST is 1 pt/level, and Striking ST is 2 pts/level). One of the characters is a troll with ST 20 and Arm ST +4, and while he does silly amounts of damage when hitting things with a sword, it doesn't feel any more broken than the wizard or the gadgeteer. Sometimes the PCs solve problems by having the troll hit things or batter through walls or carry heavy things, and sometimes they solve them other ways, and I don't think the troll is overpowered.

One of the other players has bought a fair amount of lifting ST (I think he's ST 11, Lifting ST +3) but again, that just means he carries more stuff. Sure, he's surprisingly hard to hit with a decent Dodge and a plexiglass shield, but he's not that much harder to damage than any of the other characters who invested in defense.

In short, I highly recommend cheap ST in high-tech and ultra-tech games, and would consider using it in low-tech games.
__________________
Read my GURPS blog: http://noschoolgrognard.blogspot.com
mlangsdorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
campaign switch, house rule, point cost, strength

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.