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Old 05-31-2018, 06:44 PM   #1
Solais
 
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Default Does a character's weapon count towards range for feinting?

The title question came up during a recent round of GURPS, and, surprisingly, I was unable to find a clear ruling about this via search. What specifically happened was that an opponent armed with a greatsword executed a feint (I declared this) against a player armed with a 1h mace from three hexes away (I did not declare that the feint was targeting his weapon). In other words, the player's character was not in range of the greatsword but the player's weapon was. Next turn, the opponent successfully disarmed the player character from three hexes away. Afterwards, the player raised the good question of whether this was a legal move per the rules and, if it was, whether a feint executed against a player's weapon would also apply the defensive penalties from that feint to an attack against the player's character as well.

Campaigns says on p. 365: You cannot Feint someone unless you could have hit him with a melee attack – that is, your weapon is ready and your foe is within reach. It also says on p. 399 that weapons are a character hit location and on p. 400 that weapons occupy a given number of hexes in the direction you are facing based on their size. As I understand them, these rules would seem to support an interpretation where a character's weapon counts as part of that character for the purposes of determining range for feinting, thus making it legal to feint against a character whose weapon is within range but whose body is not. Is this correct?
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:11 PM   #2
evileeyore
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Default Re: Does a character's weapon count towards range for feinting?

I'd allow it, as an attack against a person's weapon is an attack against the person. Also a Feint could be something as subtle as shifting your feet and hands, twisting your body a bit, or otherwise indicating your next attack would be at a different target (or some other entirely different action*) thus lowering the 'victim's guard' so to speak. I don't require it always directly be a 'fake attack'.



* Like faking your going to flee thus causing your foe to 'step into' your attack. I've done this one a few times in sparing and LARPs.
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Old 06-01-2018, 12:44 PM   #3
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Default Re: Does a character's weapon count towards range for feinting?

Specific rules aside, let's look at reality. Can I fool you with a false disarm to attempt a real one without being in range of you as a person? I would think "yes" so I think if the feint to strike a weapon is valid without reaching the person.
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Old 06-01-2018, 12:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Does a character's weapon count towards range for feinting?

I would say no. You're feinting the person, not the weapon. They're not going to react to an attack at a distance you cannot harm them like they would otherwise. I think technically the rules would allow it, but I wouldn't as a GM.
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Old 06-01-2018, 02:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: Does a character's weapon count towards range for feinting?

I'd allow it - it's an attack they'd have to make the defense against, which is good enough for me.

I might limit the effect of the feint to only benefit attacks against the weapon, but probably not.

...I do have the usual 'what if they just brazen it out' problem, though. That's not exclusive to feinting against weapons (armor or exotic properties could make a feigned attack no real threat) but might be more common in the case of strikes against weapons where your foe may trust in their ability to win the Disarming contest and their weapon's sturdiness.
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Old 06-01-2018, 03:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: Does a character's weapon count towards range for feinting?

In this case, absolutely. You feinted at his weapon and you attacked his weapon (disarm). I see that as totally fair.

As for whether you can feint at the weapon and attack the person... my immediate ruling for the moment would be to allow it to affect Parry but not Dodge.

Beats I would allow to take place normally, including the prerequisite of having made contact with their weapon somehow.

Ruses I would allow to work normally, which is what I'd consider evileeyore's trick of pretending to be aiming for someone else or pretending to be about to run away.

But I figure the trade-off of the increased reach is the foe being able to step out of distance for you to make proper use of your feint.
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Old 06-01-2018, 05:12 PM   #7
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Default Re: Does a character's weapon count towards range for feinting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
I would say no. You're feinting the person, not the weapon. They're not going to react to an attack at a distance you cannot harm them like they would otherwise. I think technically the rules would allow it, but I wouldn't as a GM.
Having experience with real life fencing and GURPS game mechanics, I'd suggest that you go with Boge's suggestion. Why? Most of the beats, binds, and disarms require the strength of your blade interacting with the middle or strength of his blade. In order of hilt to tip:

Pommel
Hand grip
Cross Guard
Forte
Terso
Foible
Tip

The tip is just that, the tip of the weapon. The Foible is the weakest portion of the blade overall. In my experience with fencing, most blades broke in the foible section of the blade, not the middle or forte.

In addition? Ever watch someone use a waster? That's a wooden practice sword. Someone armed with sword and shield is't going to advance with their sword arm exposed and their weapon in front of their shield. They will have their shield (usually!) in front facing the enemy, and their sword arm cocked and at the ready to swing a blow when the opportunity presents itself.

All sorts of strange things can happen in a mock combat, including a man who once broke his wrist as he aborted a slashing attack against his opponent once he realized that the opponent's safety gear wasn't as it should be. I've seen attacks aimed at the torso get drawn into the defender's leg all because his circle parry was too large in diameter (ie poorly executed). I've seen feints where the person failed to make a credible move, and I simply out waited my opponent and letting him make the first move. My fencing master would constantly tell us "the bulk of your touches should be parry/ripostes.

So - you're free to judge/rule as you see fit. But if you want to have some fun? Search YouTube for videos on sword play and watch them closely. The sword of a defender (unless all he has is a sword, no shield!) won't always be in the front of the the fighter, but closer to the flank or side or even the rear of the defender.
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Old 06-01-2018, 05:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: Does a character's weapon count towards range for feinting?

I should think so. After all a minor feint can be done by making a gesture with the tip of the rapier with almost no movement in the body(the wrist of course has to move but it is the weapon that is noticed).
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Old 06-01-2018, 05:45 PM   #9
Boge
 
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Default Re: Does a character's weapon count towards range for feinting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Having experience with real life fencing and GURPS game mechanics, I'd suggest that you go with Boge's suggestion. Why? Most of the beats, binds, and disarms require the strength of your blade interacting with the middle or strength of his blade. In order of hilt to tip:

Pommel
Hand grip
Cross Guard
Forte
Terso
Foible
Tip

The tip is just that, the tip of the weapon. The Foible is the weakest portion of the blade overall. In my experience with fencing, most blades broke in the foible section of the blade, not the middle or forte.

In addition? Ever watch someone use a waster? That's a wooden practice sword. Someone armed with sword and shield is't going to advance with their sword arm exposed and their weapon in front of their shield. They will have their shield (usually!) in front facing the enemy, and their sword arm cocked and at the ready to swing a blow when the opportunity presents itself.

All sorts of strange things can happen in a mock combat, including a man who once broke his wrist as he aborted a slashing attack against his opponent once he realized that the opponent's safety gear wasn't as it should be. I've seen attacks aimed at the torso get drawn into the defender's leg all because his circle parry was too large in diameter (ie poorly executed). I've seen feints where the person failed to make a credible move, and I simply out waited my opponent and letting him make the first move. My fencing master would constantly tell us "the bulk of your touches should be parry/ripostes.

So - you're free to judge/rule as you see fit. But if you want to have some fun? Search YouTube for videos on sword play and watch them closely. The sword of a defender (unless all he has is a sword, no shield!) won't always be in the front of the the fighter, but closer to the flank or side or even the rear of the defender.
That's what I was thinking as well, the weapon wouldn't necessarily be propped out a yard in front of the defender, so you wouldn't necessarily even be able to hit that. But the book rules say otherwise.

So I think it's more a judgement on book rulings (technically I believe that would be a yes, you can feint and then attack his weapon), but realistically it seems it would be ineffective, at least without stepping in closer to range first.
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Old 06-01-2018, 06:12 PM   #10
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Default Re: Does a character's weapon count towards range for feinting?

It seems to me that a Feint would be more difficult to credibly execute if you weren't in position to threaten anything but your opponent's weapon. One of the more fundamental kinds of feint is to feint an attack at target A, then attack target B instead. If target A isn't in range, then of course your opponent isn't going to buy it, and you're limited to manipulating other variables, like timing/rhythm and distance.

I would actually find it more plausible for a feinted disarm at reach 3 to apply without penalty to an attack in the next turn that stepped in a hex and attacked the opponent at reach 2.

In practice, though, this would be too fiddly to track to really be gameable in most campaigns. I'd permit your PC's actions without issue.

Last edited by Toptomcat; 06-01-2018 at 06:20 PM.
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