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Old 02-15-2018, 08:51 AM   #41
JMason
 
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Default Re: A Dungeoneering Fan, but a Total Gurps Newbie

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In the end, I have no idea what the best comparison actually is (to the degree it's meaningful at all). I only take a moment to muse about it here because it's a semi-interesting question that comes up when D&D players ask about GURPS...
This is why I think that Templates are a good "on boarding" measure for people who are coming from Class based games. I like how DF (and DFRPG) use the option to buy anything off the template with earned CP as a good system for "leveling up" but still not overwhelming.

That said, I do think that 250 points is higher than I would use to introduce players new to GUPRS. I got my start with 100 (back in 3e) and felt that was the "sweet spot" ... and that was before templates.
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Old 02-15-2018, 09:26 AM   #42
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This is why I think that Templates are a good "on boarding" measure for people who are coming from Class based games. I like how DF (and DFRPG) use the option to buy anything off the template with earned CP as a good system for "leveling up" but still not overwhelming.

That said, I do think that 250 points is higher than I would use to introduce players new to GUPRS. I got my start with 100 (back in 3e) and felt that was the "sweet spot" ... and that was before templates.
I think that depends on the specific build for the 250 point character. You can have a 250 point character that is not complicated, just very good at what it does. In such a case, I think this is easier for a new GURPS player because it makes combat more forgiving, which at the 100 point level it is not--especially since active defense rolls will usually be in the 75% or less success range at that point level. Then again, the GM can always play the opponents intentionally sub-optimally, but the dice at those point levels still make it less forgiving.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:08 AM   #43
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Default Re: A Dungeoneering Fan, but a Total Gurps Newbie

A 250 point character can be quite simple. A warrior with ST 14, DX 14, HT 14, Per 14, Will 14, Combat Reflexes, High Pain Threshold, and Luck has already spent 240 points. With 50 points in disadvantages and quirks, you can give her 60 points in perks and skills, which could give her a couple of styles and associated perks.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:35 AM   #44
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Default Re: A Dungeoneering Fan, but a Total Gurps Newbie

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A 250 point character can be quite simple. A warrior with ST 14, DX 14, HT 14, Per 14, Will 14, Combat Reflexes, High Pain Threshold, and Luck has already spent 240 points. With 50 points in disadvantages and quirks, you can give her 60 points in perks and skills, which could give her a couple of styles and associated perks.
I think the "60 points in perks and skills" is where new players would have the hardest time. I mean that's almost twice the budget that DFRPG gives to the Knight template for skills. From my own experiences, new players have the hardest time picking skills due to there being so many, and either (a) put one or two points in every skill they think might come up, or (b) put all the points into a handful of skills at heroic levels.

And new players that are use to "new" character sheets looking like a 1st level D&D character, might be intimidated by a skill list that fills page.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:04 AM   #45
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Or being in an unexpected situation. I doubt that many people without Combat Reflexes would be capable of reacting without a few second delay when someone starts firing into a crowd (most people do not scan their environment for potential threats).
"Civilian victim of mass shooting" is an unusual player character concept, IME.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:10 AM   #46
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Default Re: A Dungeoneering Fan, but a Total Gurps Newbie

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Then I sit with them and say, "Tell what you are thinking about for your character?" They give me ideas and I take notes. I ask them a few probing questions like, "what friends to you have? Do you have any enemies? What are your hobbies?" Etc. After they describe the character (with no books open), then I can say. Okay, you want to be a minor noble. That would be Status 1. You mentioned you wanted to be like this...you might want to have these skills. So I can translate their description to crunch and they don't have to look through the book and get overwhelmed.
I can't seem to do this without making players feel micromanaged. Which fault I suspect is in me, not them. I get very impatient with people who are taking a long time to make what seem like obvious choices. :(

Nowadays I just do templates.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:14 AM   #47
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Regarding the starting point for level 1, maybe you're right too, that 75 points or so is a good comparison, at least for some D&D classes.
It really depends on which edition, and how much that edition is "zero-to-hero". If your character can only cast Sleep once per day and will lose a fight to a housecat, you probably don't translate to much of a GURPS character. 50 may be too many points.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:40 AM   #48
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I agree. You would probably have a negative point value.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:45 AM   #49
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Default Re: A Dungeoneering Fan, but a Total Gurps Newbie

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It really depends on which edition, and how much that edition is "zero-to-hero". If your character can only cast Sleep once per day and will lose a fight to a housecat, you probably don't translate to much of a GURPS character. 50 may be too many points.
Not a very good set of comparison points. The goal is not to translate D&Disms into GURPS, but to correlate a beginning D&D character with a certain number of character points. Fighting house cats is a controversial issue in either system.

As others have said, it depends on the edition of D&D. I know the early stuff, so let's look at that. The level titles help enormously here.

A level 1 fighter is a "veteran," someone who has fought in a few battles. You have a bit of ordinary fighting experience, but nothing that a lot of others don't also have, and you don't have extensive fighting experience. According to Campaigns p. 487, that's equal to "competent," (50–75 points): they're above accountants and cab drivers but below star athletes and seasoned cops; they're more like regular athletes and cops. Since a D&D veteran is probably more capable than an average cab driver, the veteran probably exists toward the top end of that scale. Say 75 points.

A level 8 fighter is a "superhero," and represents the peak of prowess shown by Howard's Conan. Despite the "super" in "superhero," Conan isn't quite able to take on a tank barehanded (I assume) or a dragon that can beat entire armies (I assume), but he definitely fits the "legendary" (300–500 points) category: protagonist of epics and rubbing shoulders with gods, but not actually superhuman. Since Conan could probably almost take on a tank barehanded and is almost superhuman, I'd put him at the top end of this range, 500 points.

So a D&D fighter level 1 = 75 points and level 8 = 500 points.

Similar analyses can be done for the other classes. They all come out to about the same thing: starting at 75 points and reaching "name level" and gaining broad political power at about 500 points. A lot of people playing the early versions would start characters off at level 5: the level where magic-users get access to fireballs and lightning bolts, which is about where Dungeon Fantasy starts, at 250 points. Standard GURPS starting points of 150 is probably like starting off at level 3, something I've also seen, mostly to get extra hit points and spells for clerics.

Last edited by Stormcrow; 02-15-2018 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:16 PM   #50
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A level 1 fighter is a "veteran," someone who has fought in a few battles. You have a bit of ordinary fighting experience, but nothing that a lot of others don't also have, and you don't have extensive fighting experience. According to Campaigns p. 487, that's equal to "competent," (50–75 points): they're above accountants and cab drivers but below star athletes and seasoned cops; they're more like regular athletes and cops. Since a D&D veteran is probably more capable than an average cab driver, the veteran probably exists toward the top end of that scale. Say 75 points.

A level 8 fighter is a "superhero," and represents the peak of prowess shown by Howard's Conan. Despite the "super" in "superhero," Conan isn't quite able to take on a tank barehanded (I assume) or a dragon that can beat entire armies (I assume), but he definitely fits the "legendary" (300–500 points) category: protagonist of epics and rubbing shoulders with gods, but not actually superhuman. Since Conan could probably almost take on a tank barehanded and is almost superhuman, I'd put him at the top end of this range, 500 points.

So a D&D fighter level 1 = 75 points and level 8 = 500 points.
I like this: starting at 75 and getting about 60 points per level, which is a +1 in every major attribute. Obviously this can (and probably should) be taken in other combinations, but +1 to every attribute is as good a basic example of "leveling-up" as any I can think of.

EDIT: It also means your level 20 character should have about 1,215 points! Definitely powerful.
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