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Old 04-21-2018, 11:43 AM   #11
evileeyore
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
In that you got increasingly "loopy" and even simple things became very hard and people started to fall asleep while standing, but I would not say that it seemed like we were with less FP at least in any major way, meaning that marching with a heavy pack at that point was mainly challenging because the straight road was so curvy, not because we got winded fast.
I keep trying to push around rules for sleep dep to affect IQ and DX based rolls rather than FP loss, but I'm rubbish at rules creation so I haven't gotten very far.
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Old 04-21-2018, 12:40 PM   #12
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
I don't think the "Getting Up Early" reduction is meant to be cumulative. If you miss one hour of sleep every day, your bedtime doesn't keep dropping. It just moves two hours, and stays there, because you get up early one hour each day. If you got up an hour earlier every day (6, then 5 am, then 4 am), you'd get the progression bedtime advance.

The FP loss, on the other hand, is cumulative. And in this scenario, you can't recover that loss, as you're never sleeping the full period.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman View Post
I think this is how it should work. The subtraction comes off the normal 16 hour waking day, not the reduced waking day of the day before. It seems much more reasonable that way, if still a bit harsh.

Every day that he wakes up at 6, he has fourteen hours before he starts getting sleepy (at 8 pm). If he keeps going to bed at 11 pm, and getting up at 6 am, he loses a point of fatigue a day. After he loses half his FP this way (about 5 days for an average person), he'll have to start making HT rolls to stay awake at 10 pm. If he misses the roll (50/50 chance) and falls asleep at 10 and sleeps until 6, he'll get a full 8 hours of sleep and 1 FP back. This could keep him fatigued but not collapsing for a while. It sounds pretty close to a typical, chronically sleep-deprived American to me.
Thank you very much. That was the main hesitation I had about that rule. It makes more sense like that. But, as you noted it, it remains harsh. It still means that 10 days with just one hour of missed sleep are sufficient to be “on the verge of collapse” ...

Now, I have to admit that I never did that. Most often, I have one hour of missed sleep during 5 days and, then, I sleep as much as I want during the week-end.

The worse that I have done is one week of only 3 to 5 hours of sleeping, during my military service. After that, I was really exhausted: when someone asked me some question, I was unable to say whether I answered him or just thought to do it and, after while, I was even unable to say whether he really talked to me or I just dreamed … It was very strange!
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Old 04-21-2018, 12:57 PM   #13
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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In real life missing sleep does not work as give in the rules, it is much more complex. […]
I remember reading an article which said that two guys didn’t sleep for about 2 weeks. The first one, for a scientific experiment. And the second one, which was a fisherman, because his boat was caught in a big storm and all other crew members where wounded and unable to pilot the boat. So he had to do it himself, alone …

The conclusion of that article is that both of them did it without collapsing, but that both of them had a lot of visual illusion. Dreams and reality mixed up more and more.

The guy with the scientific experiment believed that the scientists want to torture and kill him; they eventually had to give him an injection to make him sleep. And the fisherman was discussing with a purple cow, standing on the ship deck, during all the end of the travel …
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Old 04-21-2018, 01:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
That’s the type of fatigue I think GURPS simulates the best.

That straight curvy road was causing you to expend more energy to walk it. It may not have been obvious to YOU but you couldn’t have rucked as far, as fast at that point as if you had been caught up on your sleep.

In game terms, because of fatigue, you were failing your IQ roll to notice the difference.
yes, it was slower, but: We were doing about 20km marches with full pack couple of the days with the normal 50 minutes walking, 10 minutes rest cycle. Carrying the full pack most of us were at least at heavy load thus using using more FP than we were gaining in the rest and combining that with having only few FP left due to lack of sleep most people should have passed out and the only problems we really had was that the march took longer(but not double time as would be expected if FP was below 1/3rd), people falling asleep on the 10 minute pauses and as said staying near the side of the road without walking into the ditch required concentration.

In GURPS rules we would likely have been below 1/3 FP at the start of the match due to lack of sleep and thus moving half speed, and the 4 FP from walking heavy would have been enough to take most people below 0 FP.

And really as you can only recover FP due to Sleep with full sleep periods according to campaigns, we would likely have started the march unconscious.

As on second day the sleep FP would hev been something like: Got up 7.5 hours early after a 30 minute sleep, so awake allowed period is 16-7.5*2=1 hour, so after 1 hour we lose 1 FP and likely a second FP before the next short nap as the loss happens after 5 hours from waking up, then maybe a nap before the next loss and so on, so if you math optimize it and use 8 hour periods with half an hour naps you lose 38 hours periods*2FP=6FP in that day and cannot recover them before sleeping a full 8 hours+1 hour/FP over 1.

So day 3 you start at -6 FP and lose 6FP more. At this point most people would be below 0 FP and thus taking HP damage for all FP use.

If you then assume that everyone has succeeded in the will rolls to actually continue or that the leaders leadership skill roll compensated for that and somehow everyone succeeds in their rolls against about 11(average healthy people+fit by that time of the program) and thus can act, on day 4 they take 6 hp damage over the 2 they took yesterday and are below 1/3 HP and thus movement is 1/4.

On day 5 they would need two HT+fit rolls/FP lost one for hit points one for FP.

On day 6 we would have started seeing some people dying for being blow -1 HP and average stats failing a death roll quite often.

And that is just the FP from sleep, the marching FP loss would have cost even more hit point damage several times a day, with the marching FP loss being recoverable by rest. So likely the deaths would have happened earlier.

But since no one of us actually died(it just felt like we were going to) and people were able to somewhat function on day 6 I would say that likely the rules are too harsh..
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Old 04-21-2018, 01:13 PM   #15
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

Yeah, intense sleep deprivation tends to get a bit wacky. Around the 2.5 day mark (which I've experienced 3 times) I start getting hallucinations/waking dreams.

Differen't people's reactions to lack of sleep, and speed of recovery, seems to my casual eye to be strongly health related. Generally healthy people suffer from sleep deprivation less and recover faster while unhealthy ones are utterly hammered by even slight amounts of sleep loss. This might be simply that healthy people have larger FP pools that take longer to be drained combined with many people being at a perpetual -1 or -2 FP, but the recovery rate makes me wonder if there is something else.
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Old 04-21-2018, 01:23 PM   #16
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

The big thing is that losing a few hours sleep doesn't cause cumulative FP loss over time. However, it does cause cognitive impairment that's actually quite significant even though we often don't notice it. Actually going without sleep is far more serious and in my experience does cause major FP loss, though I found that a simple full 8-9 hours of sleep gave full recovery.

I'd change the rules to 1FP loss for missing sleep that only recovers after a full night's sleep, and further losses only coming after long periods of no sleep. However, once you lose that 1FP you'd be 'Sleep Deprived', an irritating condition that gives -1 to DX, IQ, and self-control rolls (it's a lesser version of Drowsy, and is replaced by that once you become drowsy).
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Old 04-21-2018, 01:48 PM   #17
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by Gollum
Hello ladies and guys!

I was reading again some rules and suddenly realize that I don't understand one. At least, I suppose I don't understand it, because the results I find sounds silly.

It is the Missed Sleep rule (Basic Set, Campaigns, page 426, 427).

As far as I understand it, when you have to wake up 1 hour earlier, you subtract 2 hours from your normal day. Said like that, everything sounds normal ... as long as you only do it once or twice.

But suppose a real example: Joe Average usually goes to bed at 11 PM and wakes up at 7 AM. No problem for him. He sleeps 8 hours a day and his normal day lasts 16 hours. One week, Joe Average has more work to do. He must absolutely do it. To do it, he decides to wake up one hour earlier. He now goes to bed at 11 PM, as usual, but wake up at 6 AM.

Following the rules as I understand them, here is what happens.
• Monday, 1 hour of missed sleep, normal day reduced by 2 hours, he begins to get tired at 8 PM and since he goes to bed only at 11 PM, he takes 1 FP. He has 9 FP left.
• Tuesday, 1 hour more of missed sleep, normal day reduced by 4 hours, he begins to get tired at 6 PM and since he goes on going to bed only at 11 PM, he takes 2 FP more (one when he fails to go to sleep plus 1 after 4 hours). He has 7 FP left.
• Wednesday, 1 hour more of missed sleep, normal day reduced by 6 hours, he begins to get tired at 4 PM and since he goes on going to bed only at 11 PM, he takes 2 FP more (one when he fails to go to sleep plus 1 after 4 hours). He has 5 FP left.
• Thursday, 1 hour more of missed sleep, normal day reduced by 4 hours, he begins to get tired at 2 PM and since he goes on going to bed only at 11 PM, he takes 3 FP more (one when he fails to go to sleep plus 1 every 4 hours after that). He has 2 FP left.
• Friday, 1 hour more of missed sleep, normal day reduced by 2 hours, he begins to get tired at 12 and since he goes on going to bed only at 11 PM, he takes 3 FP more (one when he fails to go to sleep plus 1 after 4 hours). He has -1 FP left. He is “on the verge of collapse” and loses 1 HP.

And if he goes on doing that a couple of days, he will have to go to hospital!

It sounds more than harsh. I’ve done that several times. Sure, I was exhausted and had to sleep more than 8 hours during the week-end but wasn’t at all “on the verge of collapse”.

So, I’m sure I’m wrong about the rules. Can someone explain how it really works?
Okay, recapping for clarity, Joe Average normally has a 16-hour day (not a 16-hour work day, as he has to get meals, changing clothes and ablutions in there, along with some recreation) and his 8 hours of sleep run from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. We’ll assume his work day is 8 hours and normally runs from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. (We’ll assume he spends his first hour after rising having breakfast and getting to work and he has an hour off of work for lunch). Up until 7 p.m., we’ll consider him “active”, (getting home, making dinner, etc.) but between 7 p.m. and 11 p.m., he is inactive (watching TV, reading, etc.)

Instead of taking an extra hour’s work out of his “downtime” he takes it out of his sleep time and does so for five consecutive days.

Here’s what happens:
Monday, 1 hour of missed sleep, doubled to 2 hours for purposes of day length. At 6 a.m., he has missed one hour of sleep (doubled to 2 hours is still less than the four hours that constitute a quarter-day, [which is calculated from the non-sleeping 16-hour day and not the more usual 24-hour day]), so he doesn’t lose 1 FP for that. The two hours of missed sleep shorten his day to 14 hours. After 8 p.m., he is “staying up late”. If he doesn’t go to bed at 8 p.m., it costs him 1 FP. If he stays up late for until 11 p.m., he has stayed awake for 3 hours, which coupled with the hour of missed sleep from 6 a.m. to 7 a.m. constitutes a missed quarter-day for Monday and now costs him a further 1 FP for a total of -2 FP at 11 p.m.

Tuesday, at 6 a.m., he has missed another hour of sleep (for 2 hours total, doubled to 4 hours). (The hours he stayed awake between 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. are not missed sleep.) He gets tired at 7 p.m. If he doesn’t go to bed at 7 p.m., he loses 1 FP (-3 FP total). If he stays up between 7 p.m. and 11 p.m., he loses another quarter-day at 1 FP cost (-4 FP total).

Wednesday, at 6 a.m., he has missed another hour of sleep (for 3 hours total, doubled to 6 hours). He gets tired at 5 p.m. If he doesn’t go to sleep at 5 p.m., he loses 1 FP (-5 FP total). At 5 p.m., he has lost half his fatigue due to lack of sleep and must make a Will roll every two hours that he spends inactive. At 9 p.m., he has been awake another quarter-day and loses 1 FP (-6 FP total). He must also make his first Will roll. If he fails the roll, he falls asleep for a full 8 hours, or until awakened. We’ll assume that he lives alone, so barring a fire alarm or the like, he can sleep until 6 a.m., when his alarm clock goes off. That would amount to 9 hours sleep which would recover 2 FP (-4 FP total) and reduce his missed sleep to 2 hours (doubled to 4 hours [Treat him as for waking Tuesday]). If he made his Will roll at 9 p.m., he spends the next two hours being a bit dozy (-2 DX and -2 IQ) and easily set off (-2 to self-control rolls). At 11 p.m., he ought to make another Will roll, but we pass on it, since he doesn’t want to stay awake past 11 p.m. 8 p.m. to 11 p.m. is three hours, so he doesn’t lose 1 FP for a quarter-day.

Thursday, at 6 a.m., he has missed another hour of sleep (for four hours total, doubled to 8). He gets tired at 3 p.m. He doesn’t go to sleep (he’s still at work), so it costs him 1 FP (-7 FP total). This is less than 1/3 of his fatigue. At 5 p.m., he must make a Will roll to avoid falling asleep. If he does fall asleep, he will probably be awakened and told to go home. At 7 p.m., he loses 1 FP (-8 FP total) and he must make another Will roll to stay awake and again at 7:30 p.m.; 8:00 p.m.; 8:30 p.m.; 9:00 p.m.; 9:30 p.m.; 10:00 p.m.; 10:30 p.m.; and as before, we’ll skip the 11:00 p.m. roll but at 11 p.m., he loses 1 FP (-9 FP total).

If he misses his 10:00 p.m. Will roll, he gets a full 8 hours sleep, regains 1 FP (-7 FP total) and is still missing 4 hours sleep (doubled to 8 hours).
If he misses his 9 p.m. roll, he gets 9 hours sleep, regains 2 FP (-6 FP total) and is still missing 3 hours sleep (doubled to 6 hours).
If he misses his 8 p.m. roll, he gets 10 hours sleep, regains 3 FP (-5 FP total which takes him back to only worrying about periods of inactivity) and is still missing 2 hours of sleep (doubled to 4 hours).
If he misses his 7 p.m. roll, he sleeps for 11 hours, regains 4 FP (-4 FP total which eliminates the Will rolls) and is missing 1 hour of sleep (doubled to 2 hours).

Friday, at 6 a.m., he has missed another hour of sleep (for five hours total, doubled to 10). He gets tired at 1 p.m. and loses 1 FP (-10 FP total which puts him on the verge of collapse and needs to make a Will roll to do anything other than talk or rest). He needs to make a Will roll at 3 p.m. to remain awake. At 5 p.m., he needs to make another Will roll to stay awake and he loses 1 FP (-11 FP total, which also causes 1 HP damage). Presumably, he’ll spend the weekend making up for lost sleep.

I suspect the problem lies in an ignored underlying assumption. Sleep is generally the last thing people give up. If you need to work an extra hour each day, you don’t usually give up an hour’s sleep, you give up watching McGyver or Murdock Mysteries. It’s once you’ve used up all the waking hours in your week that you start looking at cutting into your sleep. People will eye working weekends before they consider a big cut in sleep. Employers (even the military) look at giving compensating time off when things do get that tight.

I’d say the problem is that this only applies when you’re already working a 16-hour day and you start stretching it into a 17-hour or more day. When you’re looking at 17+-hour days, the rules look pretty reasonable. During the Flood of the Century (Red River in April-May 1997), dyke construction workers were put on 24-hour working days to finish the dykes in time. They weren’t allowed to sleep or leave their machines on pain of being fired. GURPS Missed Sleep rules model how that worked out pretty well (counting the dyke construction as being active).

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 04-21-2018 at 02:15 PM. Reason: reformatted Thursday's effects of missed Will rolls
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Old 04-21-2018, 01:51 PM   #18
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Guys, naps are a thing.
And I've known lots of people that crash hard on the weekends sleeping nearly 12 hours from just undersleeping around a single hour each weeknight.
I don't think the rules are as excessive as all of you think.
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Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
By RAW a nap is worthless, nothing less than a full sleep period will have any effect.
And if the RAW aren't excessive, then Less Sleep must be extremely common.
There was an old thread about naps, and a lot of answers were very interesting.
I found the link after a lot of research ...
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...issed+sleep%22
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Old 04-21-2018, 02:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
I suspect that’s the case along with perhaps a HT roll being involved somewhere.

On another board I frequent sleep deprivation as it relates to exercise was recently a topic. Based on the research cited I suspect, in game terms, a large portion of the US population is constantly at -1 or -2 FP.



That’s the type of fatigue I think GURPS simulates the best.

That straight curvy road was causing you to expend more energy to walk it. It may not have been obvious to YOU but you couldn’t have rucked as far, as fast at that point as if you had been caught up on your sleep.

In game terms, because of fatigue, you were failing your IQ roll to notice the difference.

Another military example is how Soldiers, if they are smart, let the LT or other leader eat first or bring him chow, lay out his bedroll while he’s at meetings and keep him off the watch schedule so he gets uninterrupted sleep.

In game terms they are keeping his fatigue as low as possible, since the leader’s IQ rolls are what keeps them alive.
Slepiness is very similar to intoxication, and I just use the intoxication rules. After 2xHT hours without sleep you are Drowsy during periods of inactivity. After 4xHT hours, you are Tipsy, after 10xHT hours you are Euphoric. I guess it could get more realistic, and I haven't worked out anything more robust. Maybe lose a level of Fitness at some point?
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Old 04-21-2018, 02:27 PM   #20
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

From personal experience, it vastly increases the chances for Anxiety attacks. So it should likely worsen resistible disadvantages.

I've never had euphoria but my GF did when working some graveyard shifts. Enough that she was often "randomly" selected for drug tests.
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