04-21-2018, 11:43 AM | #11 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule
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04-21-2018, 12:40 PM | #12 | ||
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
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Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule
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Now, I have to admit that I never did that. Most often, I have one hour of missed sleep during 5 days and, then, I sleep as much as I want during the week-end. The worse that I have done is one week of only 3 to 5 hours of sleeping, during my military service. After that, I was really exhausted: when someone asked me some question, I was unable to say whether I answered him or just thought to do it and, after while, I was even unable to say whether he really talked to me or I just dreamed … It was very strange! |
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04-21-2018, 12:57 PM | #13 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
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Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule
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The conclusion of that article is that both of them did it without collapsing, but that both of them had a lot of visual illusion. Dreams and reality mixed up more and more. The guy with the scientific experiment believed that the scientists want to torture and kill him; they eventually had to give him an injection to make him sleep. And the fisherman was discussing with a purple cow, standing on the ship deck, during all the end of the travel … |
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04-21-2018, 01:00 PM | #14 | |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule
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In GURPS rules we would likely have been below 1/3 FP at the start of the match due to lack of sleep and thus moving half speed, and the 4 FP from walking heavy would have been enough to take most people below 0 FP. And really as you can only recover FP due to Sleep with full sleep periods according to campaigns, we would likely have started the march unconscious. As on second day the sleep FP would hev been something like: Got up 7.5 hours early after a 30 minute sleep, so awake allowed period is 16-7.5*2=1 hour, so after 1 hour we lose 1 FP and likely a second FP before the next short nap as the loss happens after 5 hours from waking up, then maybe a nap before the next loss and so on, so if you math optimize it and use 8 hour periods with half an hour naps you lose 38 hours periods*2FP=6FP in that day and cannot recover them before sleeping a full 8 hours+1 hour/FP over 1. So day 3 you start at -6 FP and lose 6FP more. At this point most people would be below 0 FP and thus taking HP damage for all FP use. If you then assume that everyone has succeeded in the will rolls to actually continue or that the leaders leadership skill roll compensated for that and somehow everyone succeeds in their rolls against about 11(average healthy people+fit by that time of the program) and thus can act, on day 4 they take 6 hp damage over the 2 they took yesterday and are below 1/3 HP and thus movement is 1/4. On day 5 they would need two HT+fit rolls/FP lost one for hit points one for FP. On day 6 we would have started seeing some people dying for being blow -1 HP and average stats failing a death roll quite often. And that is just the FP from sleep, the marching FP loss would have cost even more hit point damage several times a day, with the marching FP loss being recoverable by rest. So likely the deaths would have happened earlier. But since no one of us actually died(it just felt like we were going to) and people were able to somewhat function on day 6 I would say that likely the rules are too harsh.. |
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04-21-2018, 01:13 PM | #15 |
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA
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Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule
Yeah, intense sleep deprivation tends to get a bit wacky. Around the 2.5 day mark (which I've experienced 3 times) I start getting hallucinations/waking dreams.
Differen't people's reactions to lack of sleep, and speed of recovery, seems to my casual eye to be strongly health related. Generally healthy people suffer from sleep deprivation less and recover faster while unhealthy ones are utterly hammered by even slight amounts of sleep loss. This might be simply that healthy people have larger FP pools that take longer to be drained combined with many people being at a perpetual -1 or -2 FP, but the recovery rate makes me wonder if there is something else.
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04-21-2018, 01:23 PM | #16 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule
The big thing is that losing a few hours sleep doesn't cause cumulative FP loss over time. However, it does cause cognitive impairment that's actually quite significant even though we often don't notice it. Actually going without sleep is far more serious and in my experience does cause major FP loss, though I found that a simple full 8-9 hours of sleep gave full recovery.
I'd change the rules to 1FP loss for missing sleep that only recovers after a full night's sleep, and further losses only coming after long periods of no sleep. However, once you lose that 1FP you'd be 'Sleep Deprived', an irritating condition that gives -1 to DX, IQ, and self-control rolls (it's a lesser version of Drowsy, and is replaced by that once you become drowsy).
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Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history." Last edited by Rupert; 04-21-2018 at 01:27 PM. |
04-21-2018, 01:48 PM | #17 | |
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule
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Instead of taking an extra hour’s work out of his “downtime” he takes it out of his sleep time and does so for five consecutive days. Here’s what happens: Monday, 1 hour of missed sleep, doubled to 2 hours for purposes of day length. At 6 a.m., he has missed one hour of sleep (doubled to 2 hours is still less than the four hours that constitute a quarter-day, [which is calculated from the non-sleeping 16-hour day and not the more usual 24-hour day]), so he doesn’t lose 1 FP for that. The two hours of missed sleep shorten his day to 14 hours. After 8 p.m., he is “staying up late”. If he doesn’t go to bed at 8 p.m., it costs him 1 FP. If he stays up late for until 11 p.m., he has stayed awake for 3 hours, which coupled with the hour of missed sleep from 6 a.m. to 7 a.m. constitutes a missed quarter-day for Monday and now costs him a further 1 FP for a total of -2 FP at 11 p.m. Tuesday, at 6 a.m., he has missed another hour of sleep (for 2 hours total, doubled to 4 hours). (The hours he stayed awake between 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. are not missed sleep.) He gets tired at 7 p.m. If he doesn’t go to bed at 7 p.m., he loses 1 FP (-3 FP total). If he stays up between 7 p.m. and 11 p.m., he loses another quarter-day at 1 FP cost (-4 FP total). Wednesday, at 6 a.m., he has missed another hour of sleep (for 3 hours total, doubled to 6 hours). He gets tired at 5 p.m. If he doesn’t go to sleep at 5 p.m., he loses 1 FP (-5 FP total). At 5 p.m., he has lost half his fatigue due to lack of sleep and must make a Will roll every two hours that he spends inactive. At 9 p.m., he has been awake another quarter-day and loses 1 FP (-6 FP total). He must also make his first Will roll. If he fails the roll, he falls asleep for a full 8 hours, or until awakened. We’ll assume that he lives alone, so barring a fire alarm or the like, he can sleep until 6 a.m., when his alarm clock goes off. That would amount to 9 hours sleep which would recover 2 FP (-4 FP total) and reduce his missed sleep to 2 hours (doubled to 4 hours [Treat him as for waking Tuesday]). If he made his Will roll at 9 p.m., he spends the next two hours being a bit dozy (-2 DX and -2 IQ) and easily set off (-2 to self-control rolls). At 11 p.m., he ought to make another Will roll, but we pass on it, since he doesn’t want to stay awake past 11 p.m. 8 p.m. to 11 p.m. is three hours, so he doesn’t lose 1 FP for a quarter-day. Thursday, at 6 a.m., he has missed another hour of sleep (for four hours total, doubled to 8). He gets tired at 3 p.m. He doesn’t go to sleep (he’s still at work), so it costs him 1 FP (-7 FP total). This is less than 1/3 of his fatigue. At 5 p.m., he must make a Will roll to avoid falling asleep. If he does fall asleep, he will probably be awakened and told to go home. At 7 p.m., he loses 1 FP (-8 FP total) and he must make another Will roll to stay awake and again at 7:30 p.m.; 8:00 p.m.; 8:30 p.m.; 9:00 p.m.; 9:30 p.m.; 10:00 p.m.; 10:30 p.m.; and as before, we’ll skip the 11:00 p.m. roll but at 11 p.m., he loses 1 FP (-9 FP total). If he misses his 10:00 p.m. Will roll, he gets a full 8 hours sleep, regains 1 FP (-7 FP total) and is still missing 4 hours sleep (doubled to 8 hours). If he misses his 9 p.m. roll, he gets 9 hours sleep, regains 2 FP (-6 FP total) and is still missing 3 hours sleep (doubled to 6 hours). If he misses his 8 p.m. roll, he gets 10 hours sleep, regains 3 FP (-5 FP total which takes him back to only worrying about periods of inactivity) and is still missing 2 hours of sleep (doubled to 4 hours). If he misses his 7 p.m. roll, he sleeps for 11 hours, regains 4 FP (-4 FP total which eliminates the Will rolls) and is missing 1 hour of sleep (doubled to 2 hours). Friday, at 6 a.m., he has missed another hour of sleep (for five hours total, doubled to 10). He gets tired at 1 p.m. and loses 1 FP (-10 FP total which puts him on the verge of collapse and needs to make a Will roll to do anything other than talk or rest). He needs to make a Will roll at 3 p.m. to remain awake. At 5 p.m., he needs to make another Will roll to stay awake and he loses 1 FP (-11 FP total, which also causes 1 HP damage). Presumably, he’ll spend the weekend making up for lost sleep. I suspect the problem lies in an ignored underlying assumption. Sleep is generally the last thing people give up. If you need to work an extra hour each day, you don’t usually give up an hour’s sleep, you give up watching McGyver or Murdock Mysteries. It’s once you’ve used up all the waking hours in your week that you start looking at cutting into your sleep. People will eye working weekends before they consider a big cut in sleep. Employers (even the military) look at giving compensating time off when things do get that tight. I’d say the problem is that this only applies when you’re already working a 16-hour day and you start stretching it into a 17-hour or more day. When you’re looking at 17+-hour days, the rules look pretty reasonable. During the Flood of the Century (Red River in April-May 1997), dyke construction workers were put on 24-hour working days to finish the dykes in time. They weren’t allowed to sleep or leave their machines on pain of being fired. GURPS Missed Sleep rules model how that worked out pretty well (counting the dyke construction as being active). Last edited by Curmudgeon; 04-21-2018 at 02:15 PM. Reason: reformatted Thursday's effects of missed Will rolls |
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04-21-2018, 01:51 PM | #18 | ||
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
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Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule
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I found the link after a lot of research ... http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...issed+sleep%22 |
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04-21-2018, 02:08 PM | #19 | |
Join Date: Dec 2014
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Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule
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04-21-2018, 02:27 PM | #20 |
Untagged
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
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Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule
From personal experience, it vastly increases the chances for Anxiety attacks. So it should likely worsen resistible disadvantages.
I've never had euphoria but my GF did when working some graveyard shifts. Enough that she was often "randomly" selected for drug tests.
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