Crafting fantastic dungeon creatures in GURPS

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Not in 1st edition, no, although there is a random prostitute table.

I felt it spoke volumes about what the guys at TSR were doing with their time.

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

For some reason, my memory is telling me that Rob "Robilar" Kuntz created that table, but it's got some truly Gygaxian vocabulary to it. Frankly we're lucky that they settled on claw/claw/bite instead of rend/rend/masticate or something.

It wasn't too bad. At least on the vocabulary side - what the problem was more "So, ok, what the heck does this word have to do with a monsters back? How does this describe anything!"

I found it, and now I have a mini project going to do GURPS things to it. Well, in betwen Skyrim, that game has eaten my brainmeats.

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

The types in CC are:

Alien, Animal, Animated, Elemental, Humanoid, Supernatural Beast, Amorphous, Plant, Undead, Insect

Some of these map well. Animated = Construct, Amorphous = Slime; Animal, Elemental, Plant and Undead mean the same thing in both (Spirit, which is in Summoners, is also a kind of undead). Alien, in dungeon fantasy terms, is close to Elder Thing. The others, however, are kind of problematic, and, for generating things to whack, DF's terms are more vague. Mundane is the big kicker; it can mean a little old lady, an orc, a dragon, a bulette, a rust monster ... you name it. Same story with Demon, Divine Servitor and Faerie: they describe origin, but nothing else, much less morphology. Since one of the appeals is doing this on the fly (an example in the book involves the GM making a monster as her players turn a corner in a dungeon), that requires even more rolling to sort through the vague categories.

In short: it would work well for some of the categories, but not the vague ones.

And fooling around with rolling up a monster last night, the size table ST really should be a multiplier. I think I had a Tiny monster with ST 18, something that was making my head spin (though I envisioned the final result as a killer toy: it shot out steam and transformed victims, very weird).

Good point on the vagueness. Though looking throught the tables I'm not seeing much regarding morphology for any classification (except that Humanoid and Amorphous have assumed morphologies). Insects seems have the most, but you could certainly role something without morphology info at all...

Maybe there could be a quick-n-dirty morphology table added in there some where?

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Really darn random results are a feature/flaw of random tables :)

Including this one. But in my original notes, I had 18+ as ST 18, not 24, and I think I was counting on size to handle the extra damage, now that I think about it, and it does scale down better as a fixed, not multiplied, value, even though the original table says +100% there.

I might need to come up with a general damage table to handle Innate Attacks and really on-the-fly generation; average pounding for a DF character is something like 2d-1, usually cutting (whacking witha broadsword). I'd call it a cool 2d since a typical DF character likely has an advantage or something to make himself nastier, and it's a nice, round number, making the table something like 1d-2/1d/2d-1/2d/2d+1/3d/4d.

As a design note, the CC makes the usual assumption that damage capacity and soak capacity are not tied, like in D&D and GURPS 3e. ST=HP is cleaner in game, but not the assumption in the design of this product. This also leads to some nasty D&D conversions for big monsters since Con is both hit points and resistance. I take out the size modifier to Con when converting to GURPS HT.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Jerander

Maybe there could be a quick-n-dirty morphology table added in there some where?

Sometimes it is clear from the rolls on the description what the morphology is, sometimes from special abilities. The description tables lead to some really wild results, including being told to roll on another class's table (as an Insect rolling on the Humanoid table), and have too many entries to even try a direct conversion. Honestly, I don't have a huge issue with the CC categories other than it generates too many bugs for my taste (all are 10% chance). Whether something is a Demon, an Elder Thing or a Servitor of Good is more the function in the game; whatever fits best. But I can see some general class templates to make monsters faster.

Edit: such templates would be best fit into the DF classification, like an Elder Thing always has X, Y and Z traits and often A, B or C; think such notes in recent versions of D&D. I suspect something like this is in the pipeline already.

[Rasputin]

This is the aforementioned really random creature. I ditched the transformation ability (and my die-rolling program really wanted it, having hit upon it two different ways) and adjusted the ST per the new table. I lowered the ST arbitrarily, but then bumped it back up with Striking ST so that reflects damage but not bulk.

Stone toy soldier

This stone toy soldier has a blunt broadsword built into its right arm and, somewhat anachronistically, a smoke-blaster built into the left. It's a bit run down, having seen better days.

ST: 6		HP: 6		Speed: 6.50
DX: 12		Will: 16	Move: 2
IQ: 1		Per: 8
HT: 11		FP: n/a		SM: -6
Dodge: 9	Parry: 9	DR: 4

Steam Blast (12): 2d+1 burning; Range 5/10.
Broadsword (12): 1d+1 crushing; Reach C. This is a stone part of its arm, not a real broadsword, so it only hits for crushing damage.

Traits: Acute Taste and Smell 2 (Smell Only); Acute Vision 3; Automaton; Cannot Learn; Dark Vision; Dependency (Mana; Constantly); Doesn't Breathe; Doesn't Eat or Drink; Doesn't Sleep; Fragile (Unnatural); High Pain Threshold; Immunity to Metabolic Hazards; Indomitable; Injury Tolerance (Homogenous, No Blood); Reprogrammable; Striking ST 6 (ST 12); Unfazeable; Unhealing (Total).

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

In short: it would work well for some of the categories, but not the vague ones.

Why not just a new table using the DF types?

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Why not just a new table using the DF types?

Two reasons:

1) Each type has a description sub-table with twenty entries, though many entries are "Roll on another type's table." I would have to make new ones for the DF types. Since the current set of types works fine as-is, I don't see why. The product is intentionally system-neutral.

2) The DF subtypes are even vaguer than the CC ones, "Mundane" being the worst offender. And many types are essentially the same thing, with only point-of-origin being the sorter. The Ōkanrôyos, for example, could easily have been a Demon; I just thought "Elder Thing."

It can be done, but I can't see this worth the considerable effort. Things are left up to GM's interpretation, including the DF class to a degree.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

1) Each type has a description sub-table with twenty entries, though many entries are "Roll on another type's table." I would have to make new ones for the DF types. Since the current set of types works fine as-is, I don't see why. The product is intentionally system-neutral.

That it's system-neutral is really nice, but if you're using it with a specific system, it makes sense to me to customize it. I can see why it's more work, but I'm getting to the point where I prefer to do that work on the front end (write new tables) instead of the back end (customize the results manually).

Originally Posted by Rasputin

2) The DF subtypes are even vaguer than the CC ones, "Mundane" being the worst offender. And many types are essentially the same thing, with only point-of-origin being the sorter. The Ōkanrôyos, for example, could easily have been a Demon; I just thought "Elder Thing."

Those categories, even Mundane, have in-game effects, so it's not just point-of-origin. Higher Purpose, Hidden Lore, spells, True Faith (w/Turning), what's an Evil Supernatural Power for Resistance purposes, etc. - it's very dependent on creature type.

Mundane isn't really so vague, really. Not to me anyway. It's just a catch-all. It just doesn't have a special origin. Not faerie, so Hidden Lore (Faerie) won't tell you about it. It's not an animal, so animal spells don't work on it. It's not some bizarre hybrid animal. It's not a demon, so Higher Purpose 1 (Kill Demons) doesn't give you a +1. And so on. I've never found it hard to categorize a monster - if the others don't fit, Mundane is where it goes. I find it a broad category but not vague, per se. If it was vague, I wouldn't know what to put in it. Since I do, what's so vague about it? I hope that makes sense.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

That it's system-neutral is really nice, but if you're using it with a specific system, it makes sense to me to customize it.

I do agree with this. But:

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

I can see why it's more work, but I'm getting to the point where I prefer to do that work on the front end (write new tables) instead of the back end (customize the results manually).

A problem is that I don't think it will cut out any work on the back end.

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

I've never found it hard to categorize a monster - if the others don't fit, Mundane is where it goes. I find it a broad category but not vague, per se. If it was vague, I wouldn't know what to put in it. Since I do, what's so vague about it? I hope that makes sense.

It does, but you're looking at it from the other direction. I too can easily sort through the Monster Manual or Tome of Horrors and pick out the DF monster type, because I already have a set of stats and a description that tells me what the monster is and how it works. I randomly flip open my Tome of Horrors PDF (what a wonderful deal that was when RPGNow and Necromancer had that as a freebie a few years ago!) to page 151 and come to the end of Lucifer's stats; he's obviously a Demon. I go to 374 and get a Wolf Spider; clear-cut Hybrid. I go back a hundred pages to the Mummy of the Deep; Undead. Page 94 has the Decapus; Mundane. It's not going from Decapus to Mundane that's the issue, but going the other way.

Having said that, I can see some of the murkier types as a supplemental table. The Decapus, for example, could easily be an Elder Thing instead if I ignore the description in Tome of Horrors, or a Demon. Some types are just blitheringly obvious, like Spirit or Animal, but let me whip something up right now:

Optional DF Class Table
d100	Class
01-20	Demon/Divine Servitor
21-40	Elder Thing
41-60	Faerie
61-100	Mundane

Demons and Divine Servitors are so similar that it doesn't make sense to have two entries. I left out the ones that are already on the CC table; this is for Aliens, Humanoids and Supernatural Beasts. I made it a d100 table since the CC author (Tom Pigeon) doesn't seem to have other dice besides d10s; his GM Emulator uses them exclusively, and it looks like his Mythic system does as well.

As a side note, I think I should go through the existing DF monsters and see what traits are universal to each class. This isn't specific to this little project; it's obviously useful for anyone making monsters with any method. Though I suppose you've already done that.

[Bruno]

I had a run through the tables today for amusement, I may have got a bit carried away. :D

I started with Rasputin's tables, but I tweaked *cough* some stuff - I'm an uncontrollable tweaker. Notable for this is that I squeezed in a Demon entry on the creature type table, and the apperance table for it says "roll on hordeling appearance tables" ;)

I'm treating (10+ST adjust.) from the Size table as %age of Potency ST, and also added in a SM -1 and SM +1 row :)

This evening I might make a customized-for-DF class table as a drop in replacement too.

Size 39 gets me Human-sized - no modifiers.
Number roll suggests 1 PC <=> 1 Monster.
Class roll of 55 got me Demon on my tweaked table - 60% chance it can see or otherwise sense in the dark (I rolled 76, so no), +1 roll on Special Abilities, a second roll to see how smart/stupid it is got me 37, or "Normal" inteligence. Potency modifiers of Health +2, Speed +4, Defense +2, Offense +3.
Hordling appearance rolls (ignoring size and strength and special attacks/defenses which are being handled already)
Color: Olive-green
Overall Visage: Hanging, flaccid
Head Shape: Conical
Head Adornment: Spikes
Ears number: 4 ears
Ears: Huge, humanoid
Eye Color: Blank White
Eyes number: 2 eyes
Eyes: Small, sunken
Nose: Long, pointed
Mouth size: Huge
Mouth: Tushes
Appearance of Torso: Short, thick
Neck: Thrust forward, thick
Back: Hunched
Tail: Long, barbed
Arms number: 1 arm
Arms: Trunk-like
Legs number: 2 legs
Legs: Telescoping (Can add 50% to normal height)

I'm going to say that with all the short, thick, trunklike stuff floating around in this description, the creature gets a +4 on Potency rolls for Strength. It looks sturdy.
I'm going to take the spines all the way down the creature, not just on the head, and the tail isn't "barbed" so much as "Spiky".
For 4 ears I'll give it +4 to Hearing checks (+1 for each extra ear, +2 for 'huge')
Huge mouth with tushes - Born Biter +2, some bite-only striking ST, and a cutting bite. (Huge mouths give D&D hordelings a more damaging attack).
The long barbed tail will be a striker, and a crude manipulator. Telescoping legs is funny, clearly some Stretching here.

I will attempt to draw this later - there is not much in the way of CG that will help me here I think, so it's going to look very cheap 70s D&D art (how appropriate!)

For the first Ability, a 60 is Specific Vulnerability. Supplementary roll is 85, which says the Demon becomes powerless until the source of the ability is removed. I then generate 1-24 to nag the table into what category the vulnerabilty should be found under (Common, uncommon, rare) and get a 4. I decide the demon looses its powers when exposed to Sunlight because it's nicely dramatic. In an underground dungeon this won't factor, but the Sunlight spell will ruin it, and they'll be restricted to night-time activity on the surface.

I go back and fiat "chance it can see or otherwise sense in the dark" to an automatic yes. With four ears, I'll call it Sonar.

For Ability 2, 45 is Concealment. Combined with the vulnerability to sunlight, this Demon is shaping up to be a shadowy stalker type (dramatically revealed by daylight! I'm tentatively considering "Invisible", but with the creature being olive green I'm also considering significant levels of chameleon. With sonar and sunlight sensitivity and concealment, I'm thinking it might actually be blind.

Ability 3 is 4, no more abilities. Because this is a demon and the demon entry says +1 abilities, I roll one more time despite this result.

Ability 4 is 85, Ranged Attack, +2 potency. Ooo. This could be a nasty combination with being Stealthy - but I'm going to go with a visible attack to give the players a PER roll to guess where it is (or was, if it's moving). To give me a hint of what kind of attack, I steal the table from Resist Damage and get 46, piercing attacks/bullets etc. With the head spikes and barbed tail, I'll go with shooting long arrow-like spines (barbed) and since this is an invisible ranged attacker, I'll note that it should be a high ACC sniper.

My current potency modifiers are +4 to Strength, +2 to Health, +4 to Move, +2 to Defense, +5 to Attack. Time to roll for all the little attributes!
I'm rolling separately for ST, DX, IQ, Move adjustment, DR on Rasputin's tables. I'm using a baseline HT of 12 and HP, Will, Per, and FP = to their base attributes and use the Move column to adjust it, rather than treating them as core attributes. HT is going on the list because I don't like extreme HT values on monsters.
I roll 2 for ST and add my +4 for physique, and +3 for Demon attack potency, getting a Less creature (ST 11).
I get a 16 +2 potency for Health for Maximum to get +3
I roll a 9 for DX and get a "Less" DX of 11.
I roll a 10 for IQ and get a "Baseline" IQ of 12
I roll a 18 for Per and get Maximum, for +3
I roll a 10 for Will and get a "Baseline" Will
I roll a 11 for HT, and add +2 Health potency and get "More" HT 13.
I roll a 20 (!) for FP for Maximum (again!) for +3.
Base Speed and Move is 6 on the dot from.
I roll a 6 for Move, and add my +4 adjustment for "Baseline".
I roll a 9 for Defense Potency and add 2 for Demon, for 11, "Baseline" DR 3.
I roll a 9 for Potency for the ranged attack, 3 for demon and 2 from the Ranged Attack special ability. This gets me "More" potency and I now have to decide what that means. I decide to use the ST value this goes with (13) for this Special Attack damage and decide on volleys of spikes at once, because it's interesting.
I roll a 17 for the Potency of the defensive ability, which is Strong. I decide to read off the DR column and call it 6 levels of Chameleon with the Active enhancement.

Next post: stat block!