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Old 06-21-2019, 08:18 AM   #1
Michael Thayne
 
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Default [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

Low-Tech overhauled the rules for bronze armor, making it as good as iron armor but much more expensive. However, I can't find any similar update to the rules for bronze weapons. The Low-Tech books seem to imply that they shouldn't for example, be penalized for parrying iron weapons, but this isn't explicit. And there are other related questions left unanswered: are bronze weapons any more expensive than iron ones? Are TL3 steel weapons really that much better than bronze ones? Do we have quasi-official answers to the questions anywhere—even in a Pyramid article?
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Old 06-21-2019, 10:06 AM   #2
Black Leviathan
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

I've always just put bronze and raw-iron weapons fell under the topic of "cheap" weapons.
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Old 06-21-2019, 05:16 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

Not sure about the official rules, but bronze weapons are really weaker than iron and steel ones. While bronze armor does pretty well, the softer nature of bronze makes it so that steel and iron weapons cut into them pretty badly (there are some Youtube videos that show this with good quality replicas). I think counting them as "cheap" for breakage is very fair. IMHO they should also have the same CF as bronze armor.
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Old 06-21-2019, 06:05 PM   #4
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
Not sure about the official rules, but bronze weapons are really weaker than iron and steel ones. While bronze armor does pretty well, the softer nature of bronze makes it so that steel and iron weapons cut into them pretty badly (there are some Youtube videos that show this with good quality replicas). I think counting them as "cheap" for breakage is very fair. IMHO they should also have the same CF as bronze armor.
I think hardness goes wrought iron < bronze < cast iron (with some overlap, all three metals range in hardness). However, cast iron is relatively brittle—the downside of being less likely to bend is it's more likely to break outright. Not sure about the relative brittleness of wrought iron vs. bronze. Steel is certainly superior to all three, for weapons at any rate. So the issue is a bit complicated.
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Old 06-21-2019, 09:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
Not sure about the official rules, but bronze weapons are really weaker than iron and steel ones. While bronze armor does pretty well, the softer nature of bronze makes it so that steel and iron weapons cut into them pretty badly (there are some Youtube videos that show this with good quality replicas). I think counting them as "cheap" for breakage is very fair. IMHO they should also have the same CF as bronze armor.
That shouldn't apply to maces and axes though - you don't parry with the metal part, and it's still hard enough that it's not going to deform even when hitting metal armour.
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:40 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

Iron didn't replace bronze because it was better. It replaced bronze because it was cheaper and more readily available. The performance of ferrous blades didn't begin to surpass bronze until the intricacies of quench-hardened steel was understood (a thousand years after the Iron Age began). I think it was Neil Burridge who tested a mild steel sword against one of his bronze swords and the steel one came off the worse.

Tin-bronze (of a composition typically used in the Bronze Age) has similar mechanical properties as unhardened medium carbon steel, so it can't be used for fine quality blades. Treat bronze blades the same as ferrous blades except that price is 4x and restrict them to cheap and good quality.
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Old 06-22-2019, 03:15 AM   #7
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

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Iron didn't replace bronze because it was better. It replaced bronze because it was cheaper and more readily available. The performance of ferrous blades didn't begin to surpass bronze until the intricacies of quench-hardened steel was understood (a thousand years after the Iron Age began). I think it was Neil Burridge who tested a mild steel sword against one of his bronze swords and the steel one came off the worse.
This was something that surpassed me when I was doing research into the bronze age a few years back. And that another big disadvantage bronze had is not only are both copper and tin less common than iron, but they are also found in different places so a society that wants to make bronze has to be part of a trade network.

Quote:
Tin-bronze (of a composition typically used in the Bronze Age) has similar mechanical properties as unhardened medium carbon steel, so it can't be used for fine quality blades. Treat bronze blades the same as ferrous blades except that price is 4x and restrict them to cheap and good quality.
Out of curiosity, do you know anything about the strength of non-tin bronzes? There are a large number of different bronze alloys with different properties. In particular, arsenic bronze was used early on and most modern bronzes are aluminum bronze (which obviously was not an alloy used in the bronze age).
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:04 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

In my Bronze Age Setting bronze weapons were just more expensive, no other effect. I worked out one rule of thumb for knives and swords, and another for hafted weapons based on the setting''s prices for copper and tin. The fact that some weapons are hard to make out of bronze is covered by the Thrusting Broadsword and Short Cutting Rapier being TL 2-4 (a few cultures had Craft Secret perks for making them).

Arsenic bronze was only used during the copper age, in the Bronze Age proper, with chariots and swords, and what not, bronze weapons and armour were of carefully designed high-tin alloys.
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Old 06-22-2019, 07:16 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

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Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
Out of curiosity, do you know anything about the strength of non-tin bronzes? There are a large number of different bronze alloys with different properties. In particular, arsenic bronze was used early on and most modern bronzes are aluminum bronze (which obviously was not an alloy used in the bronze age).
Modern silicon bronzes can be quite hard, well as being corrosion-resistant, low-friction (something steel is not), and easy to cast and machine. They'd probably make decent knives, but I don't know how well they do for swords.
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:11 AM   #10
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there are also some interesting but below Gurps resolution differences. Bronze weapons need to be sharpened more often than iron, can be bent back into shape more readily, and of course don't really corrode over centuries or possibly even millennia. They just develop a thin patina.

That last one is really cool for a realistic backstory for truly ancient caches of treasures.
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