07-12-2016, 09:22 PM | #21 |
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Swords and plate
SO basically, you've made some absolute statements, which are controversial to say the least, and followed it up by really mucking up the ST and damage rules in GURPS. And now you want help?
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07-12-2016, 09:24 PM | #22 | |
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Swords and plate
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http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm#.V4WyybsrLIU |
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07-12-2016, 11:22 PM | #23 | |
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Re: Swords and plate
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ARMA (Association Renaissance Martial Arts) & also any HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) group will have a fair amount to say about it. Scholagladiatoria has some videos on the topic, a start is this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBwtkRd8xzU Mike Loades in Swords & Swordsmen (it was pretty expensive when I got it, however) makes some discussion of using swords against armour, with some variation in different examples but consistently that the method was not to cut through plate. I hope that helps! |
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07-13-2016, 12:15 AM | #24 | |||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Swords and plate
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If you could actually cite a specific manual (or later experiment) that actually states that axes (or axe blades on pole arms) were reliably used to chop through proper plate armour as a combat technique, that would be great. Last edited by Tomsdad; 07-13-2016 at 03:13 AM. Reason: Added a couple of earlier posts to put some direct context in |
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07-13-2016, 01:14 AM | #25 | |||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Swords and plate
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The current chinks rules already play to thrusting attacks as they are limited to Pi & Imp, thus larger restricted to thrusting attacks when it comes to melee weapons. I think that you're suggesting this more from a game balance point of view in order to balance swords against armour? Which is fine from a game balance point of view. But I think historically swords (and lots of weapons) were just sub optimal against armour. Quote:
That would remove one of advantages that crushing weapon enjoy against armour over cutting weapons, which is why those well know armour defeating pole arms you mentioned earlier often had crushing heads for armour rather than using their cutting heads. I quite like the idea of adjusting the flexible / non-flexible hard distinction though There was recent thread on this (actually it came up in the resurrected portion of this thread, post 141+) Quote:
It actually goes to half the point of armour, yes it stops damage. But the follow on to that is it forces your opponent to rely on a narrow and difficult (thus disadvantageous) set of tactics to defeat it e.g Yes penalties to hit chinks can be compensated for by telegraphic or AoA attacks. But the armour wearer can capitalise on that. Moreover if I'm in armour that my opponent has to use TA or AoA to get around and even then it's not a sure thing, I myself can use Committed or AoA's at less risk (with AoA even if you can defend the downsides for me getting hit back afterwards is less because of my armour). Or say I know you need to go with half swording or grappling, then I'll keep my distance and punish you when you are forced to move in as you can't trade blows with me at longer reaches. Last edited by Tomsdad; 07-13-2016 at 07:30 AM. Reason: Wasn't quick in the end! |
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07-13-2016, 01:32 AM | #26 | |
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Re: Swords and plate
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Axes were overall pretty good, not ideal for armour piercing, but certainly far from horrible metal weapons. |
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07-13-2016, 01:49 AM | #27 | |
Untagged
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
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Re: Swords and plate
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__________________
Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check. |
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07-13-2016, 01:57 AM | #28 |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Swords and plate
I'm telling y'all, Super Edge Protection is the way to go if you're concerned about swinging swords being to effective against armor, and how slipping a few points of impaling damage through armor at a time is ridiculous.
Crushing damage against armor is unchanged. Impaling damage needs to beat 2xDR: otherwise, anything over DR is converted to crushing. If impaling damage reaches the threshold, though, it's all impaling: either it manages a bit of blunt trauma, or it punches through and ruins your day. Cutting damage is as above, but it needs to beat 3xDR. How strong do you need to be to cut through chainmail? Crazy strong. These are the thresholds for mail, scale, and other non-plate metal armor. Fibrous armor (paper, straw, cloth etc) is good against impaling, rubbish against cutting. Leather armor is good against cutting, rubbish against impaling. Plate armor is like mail, but just better. There's a reason a suit of light plate costs $3,000. But if you wanted to multiply plate DR by 2/3, it would still be damn fine armor. Oh, and someone mentioned how good axes are at chopping braced targets? It turns out most things are, so give AD(2) to all attacks against a prone opponent from above. |
07-13-2016, 02:03 AM | #29 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Swords and plate
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Thing is, in TL 2-4 warfare, the peasants basically stuck to thrust damage, didn't they? |
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07-13-2016, 03:01 AM | #30 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Swords and plate
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All of which is demonstrated by the fact that nasty things on the end of long sticks (which includes spears) were basically the pre-eminent battlefield melee weapon for thousands of years. However... ... the same can not be said of axes, despite their relative cheapness and wide spread use and availability outside the battlefield. The oft cited John II at Poitiers preference for an axe only goes so far in a wider context. Last edited by Tomsdad; 07-13-2016 at 07:31 AM. |
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