Face damage knockdown

[Not]

I've been punched in the face for 1 hp. Per p.420, I need to roll for knockdown. Do I roll against HT or HT-5? P.399 seems to suggest the latter, but p.420 specifies a major wound to the head, which suggests the former.

[Skarg]

You roll against HT (or not at all if you have 20+ HP) or some other way of not taking Shock from the blow.

I think 399 means you roll against HT -5 for a major wound to the face, as compared to rolling against HT for a major wound somewhere other than face / vitals / male groin.

[Not]

Is that Shock or Stun? (Geez, I wish GURPS would choose game terms less confusingly!)

[Nereidalbel]

Knockdown is basically a forced Change Posture. Stun itself would be a separate roll, and there is no roll for Shock.

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by B420

Whenever you suffer a major wound, and whenever you are struck in the head (skull, face, or eye) or vitals for enough injury to cause a shock penalty (see Shock, p. 419), you must make an immediate HT roll to avoid knockdown and stunning. Modifiers: -5 for a major wound to the face or vitals (or to the groin, on a humanoid male)

So, any head or vitals hit causing at least 1 pt of damage, or any Major Wound, requires a Knockdown and Stunning roll.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Knockdown is basically a forced Change Posture. Stun itself would be a separate roll, and there is no roll for Shock.

Agreed that there is no roll for Shock penalties, but Knockdown and Stunning appear to be a single roll to me, in the rules as written.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Not

Is that Shock or Stun? (Geez, I wish GURPS would choose game terms less confusingly!)

Shock is a penalty you take on your next turn to all DX/IQ-based rolls for that one turn equal to the amount of damage you took, to a maximum of -4. Thus, if I punch you for 1 damage, you are at -1 to all attacks and lockpicking and seduction and warp-engine-inventing rolls for that turn only. Shock penalties do not apply to defense rolls.

Stun is a state in which you can do nothing (that is, you must only take the Do Nothing maneuver) and you may defend, but at a -4 penalty. If you take a "major wound" (which is usually more than 1/2 your HP, though this depends on the hit location: a wound of more than 1/3 your HP to your hand is enough to cripple it, and a crippled hit location is always a major wound, to say nothing of eyes...) or when you take any damage to your head, skull or vitals, you must check to see if you are stunned. This is an HT roll. If you are not stunned, you may carry on, though you are still subject to Shock (you are subject to shock if you ARE stunned, of course, but since you can't do anything, it doesn't matter, and shock penalties never apply to defense rolls).

Knockdown automatically happens whenever you fail your stun check. If you are knocked down, you are prone and suffer additional penalties: generally a -4 to attack and a -3 to defense. On later turns, you may Change Posture to get back up.

So, if I break your hand with 4 points of damage, you need to check to see if you are stunned. If you pass, you are at -4 to attack me (and also, your hand is crippled so that makes attacking even harder). Your best course of action might be to retreat or make an all-out defense. If you fail, you are stunned (-4) defense and prone (generally -3 to defense) and unable to do anything on the next turn. Chances are, this is when the kicking starts.

EDIT: I had -2/-2 for prone. I must have been thinking of crouching/kneeling, because that was a common element from Cherry Blossom Rain. My bad.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Dustin

So, any head or vitals hit causing at least 1 pt of damage [...]

Any hit causing at least a penalty of -1 due to shock. Which means 1 point of damage for most humans but not for huge creatures (2 points of damage are required for creatures with HP 20-29, 3 points of damage for creatures with HP 30-39, 4 points of damage for creatures with HP 40-49 and so on...). And the DR also has to be removed first. So, not so easy to knock down and stun an elephant, even with a good mace blow at the head (8 points of damage are required).

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Dustin

Agreed that there is no roll for Shock penalties, but Knockdown and Stunning appear to be a single roll to me, in the rules as written.

Yeah, as far as I can tell Physical Stun always causes Knockdown, while Mental Stun doesn't. Personally, I'd be inclined to allow a (penalized) roll against DX to avoid the Knockdown, but that's an added complication.

[Not]

So I hit the elephant for 8 points of damage, and he rolls 12 or less to avoid knockdown. But if I get a critical hit and roll a major wound, or if I do the requisite damage to qualify as a major wound (calculation later), he rolls at 7 or better. Do I have that right?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Not

So I hit the elephant for 8 points of damage, and he rolls 12 or less to avoid knockdown. But if I get a critical hit and roll a major wound, or if I do the requisite damage to qualify as a major wound (calculation later), he rolls at 7 or better. Do I have that right?

Yep. A minor quibble is that injury is what matters, not damage; against a foe with 30 HP, a 4 damage pi- bullet to the Face won't risk knockdown, but a 2 damage pi++ bullet to the Face will, as these become 2 injury - not enough for Shock - and 4 injury - above the Shock threshold - respectively.