[Social Engineering] Resisting / Misleading / etc. enemy Empathy? (Hard to Read?)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Empathy doesn't pick up the top layer. It picks up the bottom layer, the one that's below thoughts, words, memories and images. Mind reading just picks up what you happen to be thinking at that moment. A Callous method actor can fool a mind reader just by thinking fake compassionate thoughts. Empaths though don't pick up the thoughts or emotions that a person is feeling right at that moment. They pick up who that person fundamentally is all the time.

Just for the skill benefits, Empathy is pretty valuable. I think I'd be comfortable with interpreting the 'read for others' aspect of it as a less useful ability than "Makes all skills and abilities meant to facilitate long-term deception useless against you'.

It doesn't really fit many fictional characters unless we assume that the feel that they get for other people is, at most, a vague sense about their personality. They shouldn't be able to immediately pin-point that someone with Morph, Mimicry and high Acting skill is pretending to be someone he's not. At most, in that case, I'd give a player: "He keeps a tight rein on his emotions, that one. You get the sense that everything he does and says is carefully considered."

That's quite apart from the result of the Acting skill check vs. whatever skill the PC is rolling against, assisted by Empahty, of course. It's just an intuitive sense that the other party is keeping a part of himself behind closed doors.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Icelander

It doesn't really fit many fictional characters unless we assume that the feel that they get for other people is, at most, a vague sense about their personality.

That's what I've always taken it to mean. There's another ability that some real people have which seems distinct, although related: the ability to get people to talk and keep talking. "Good listener" is one description of it, but some people I've met in the past few years are extremely good at it, to the point where it feels like something that would be a GURPS advantage.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by johndallman

That's what I've always taken it to mean. There's another ability that some real people have which seems distinct, although related: the ability to get people to talk and keep talking. "Good listener" is one description of it, but some people I've met in the past few years are extremely good at it, to the point where it feels like something that would be a GURPS advantage.

Its a skill, and probably using Active Listening techniques.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Just for the skill benefits, Empathy is pretty valuable. I think I'd be comfortable with interpreting the 'read for others' aspect of it as a less useful ability than "Makes all skills and abilities meant to facilitate long-term deception useless against you'.

It doesn't really fit many fictional characters unless we assume that the feel that they get for other people is, at most, a vague sense about their personality. They shouldn't be able to immediately pin-point that someone with Morph, Mimicry and high Acting skill is pretending to be someone he's not. At most, in that case, I'd give a player: "He keeps a tight rein on his emotions, that one. You get the sense that everything he does and says is carefully considered."

That's quite apart from the result of the Acting skill check vs. whatever skill the PC is rolling against, assisted by Empahty, of course. It's just an intuitive sense that the other party is keeping a part of himself behind closed doors.

What Kromm had to say:

Originally Posted by Kromm

There's a whole mess of traits here, but no two are exactly alike. The important bits:

Empathy

What It Is: The near-psychic ability to spot impersonators, pod people, possessed individuals, and traitors instantly with an IQ roll. Fringe benefits include detecting that someone is lying in general by making an IQ roll, and +3 to Detect Lies, Fortune-Telling, and Psychology.

When It Works: When you meet the subject in person. You don't necessarily have to see him, but you must come within touching distance of him.

Limitations: Doesn't work on IQ 0-5 entities or on spirits. Doesn't work outside of personal meetings. Its lie-detection ability is vague, and only reveals whether any lying is going on, not the specific bits that are lies, much less the truth.

Illustrations: If anybody in The Matrix had Empathy, they'd have strung up Cypher as soon as he cut his deal. If any of Mystique's enemies had Empathy, her power would be kind of useless.

Detect Lies (untrained use at Per-6 • defaults to Body Language and Psychology at -4 • gives Body Language at -4 • Empathy gives +3)

What It Is: The studied, fairly realistic ability to tell when somebody is lying, primarily from voice stress and word choice. It resists each attempt to lie to you; your subject rolls IQ, Acting, or Fast-Talk. Victory reveals whether a particular statement was a lie – a trick that's beyond simple Empathy (although someone with Empathy could add +3 to the default of Per-6 to try this at Per-3).

When It Works: Whenever you can hear your subject speaking. You do not have to see or even be very near him! This works on dictators giving shouted speeches at rallies or on the radio, and even over the telephone.

Limitations: Does nothing until the subject speaks. Doesn't detect emotions, hidden features, motives, or truths – only lies. Can be defeated by someone with high Acting or Fast-Talk.

Illustrations: This is the classic detective ability in police drama, where the cops behind the one-way glass listen to the interview with the suspect, and one of them suddenly says, "He's lying!"

Body Language (no untrained use • defaults to Detect Lies and Psychology at -4 • gives Detect Lies at -4)

What It Is: The studied, fairly realistic ability to read physical "tells." Can spot impersonators and strong emotions (but nothing as weird as possession or pod people) like Empathy, and lying like Detect Lies, by observing someone. A fringe benefit is being able to spot physical tension: "He's going for a weapon!", "He flinched when you said 'England.' He may be a British agent.", etc.

When It Works: Whenever you can see your subject. You do not have to hear or even be very near him! This works on dictators gesticulating at rallies or on TV, and even via camera or other remote optics.

Limitations: Does nothing if you can't see your subject; hearing or even touching him isn't enough. Doesn't detect motives or hidden features – just lies and impersonation. Empathy gives no bonus.

Illustrations: This is a traditional bodyguard skill, used to spot fake guards and people going for guns. This is also the classic kung fu sifu ability in martial-arts flicks, where the ancient master can tell when his student is angry, not training properly, etc. merely by looking at how he moves.

Psychology (untrained use at IQ-6 • defaults to Sociology at -4 • gives Body Language and Detect Lies at -4 • Empathy gives +3)

What It Is: The studied, fairly realistic ability to predict the general behavior of an individual in a particular situation. This can be reversed to determine whether a particular behavior or deed (e.g., a murder) suits a given person. This is the only predictive ability on this list (although someone with Empathy could add +3 to the default of IQ-6 to try this at IQ-3).

When It Works: After a lengthy period of observation or a full-length interview, possibly supplemented by scientific tests, or after reviewing a file that includes roughly the same level of data on the subject or deed of interest.

Limitations: Does nothing in short order – if you can't observe, interview, or review a file, you can't make any guesses at all. Vague, giving broad answers ("He'll resort to violence.") but never specifics ("Only one man would put deadly poison in the city's water supply."). Worthless against lies and impersonations happening right now.

Illustrations: This is the realistic profiler's ability, often used somewhat cinematically in serial-killer movies like Se7en and Silence of the Lambs.

Somebody with neither Empathy nor points in these skills has no chance of spotting motivations or impersonation on merely meeting or seeing someone, as described for Empathy and Body Language; can tell when he's being lied to in speaking with default Detect Lies at Per-6; and can predict others' behaviors from their profiles with default Psychology at IQ-6.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

What Kromm had to say:

This makes Empathy useless for any adventuring plot and disallowed in any realistic game.

[the_matrix_walker]

Before running off and building an aura that afflicts the loss of the empathy advantage or 10 levels of a subtle obscure how about something like combining...

Perk: Special mental training [1]
Acting @ IQ (Cosmic, fools Empathy, +100%) [4]

And call it whatever your explanation for it suggests. I think 5 points is sufficient for being mostly immune to a single unique advantage. Then the player can buy normal acting from the default of IQ if they wish.

[David Johnston2]

No such thing as a cosmic skill. But I suppose you could use Aspected Luck (only to defeat Telempathic powers.)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Empathy doesn't pick up the top layer. It picks up the bottom layer, the one that's below thoughts, words, memories and images. Mind reading just picks up what you happen to be thinking at that moment. A Callous method actor can fool a mind reader just by thinking fake compassionate thoughts. Empaths though don't pick up the thoughts or emotions that a person is feeling right at that moment. They pick up who that person fundamentally is all the time.

That doesn't seem to be the case. According to Powers (163), Mind Reading which is for some reason used to merely enhance a skill (e.g. as per the Skill Enhancement Only limitation) provides +4 to Detect Lies, compared Empathy's +3, and then points out that the two bonuses are not cumulative, because Mind Reading is 'a more advanced version of the same thing'.

Semi-Tangent: the method actor case seems to imply that method actors have Mind Block at above-default level. Even so, Mind Block is at -2 to hide emotions. The only reason why an Empath will be better off than a Telepath or Mage is that Empathy does not require a Quick Contest.

Anyway, for the character in question, not only are many subsets of thoughts more fundamental than emotions, but there are mechanism by which some of those thoughts completely override, to some extent even rewire emotions.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

It doesn't really fit many fictional characters unless we assume that the feel that they get for other people is, at most, a vague sense about their personality. They shouldn't be able to immediately pin-point that someone with Morph, Mimicry and high Acting skill is pretending to be someone he's not. At most, in that case, I'd give a player: "He keeps a tight rein on his emotions, that one. You get the sense that everything he does and says is carefully considered."

I don't get it. Getting the 'this is not the Bob I knew all these years including yesterday morning' is exactly what Empathy does about Morphs/etc.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by johndallman

That's what I've always taken it to mean. There's another ability that some real people have which seems distinct, although related: the ability to get people to talk and keep talking. "Good listener" is one description of it, but some people I've met in the past few years are extremely good at it, to the point where it feels like something that would be a GURPS advantage.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Its a skill, and probably using Active Listening techniques.

I disagree about it being a skill. I had this trait back in school, in contrast to being not very popular to other sorts of conversations. It's definitely not deliberate - I've heard plenty of other people rant about having the trait.