[DF] Beyond the Dungeon

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

ETA: Ah yes, I see where the streams got crossed there. I imagine that AD&D book still had a narrow focus in comparison to GURPS though.

While I don't remember all the details, I don't think The Castle Guide speak about picking juries. Other books from that line devoted to other cultures can do it, though. But the thing is, when specifically you mention jurisprudence, it sounds very anti-fantastic.

Also you're distorting things: I never said AD&D had a greater focus than GURPS (which lacks focus, since it tries to be generic, universal, etc.), but that the AD&D scope is greater than the one acknowledged for Dungeon Fantasy.

Let's not go in circles.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by demonsbane

While I don't remember all the details, I don't think The Castle Guide speak about picking juries. Other books from that line devoted to other cultures can do it, though. But the thing is, when specifically you mention jurisprudence, it sounds very anti-fantastic.

Criminal justice is a pretty important thing for defining a government, how it works is probably a required element of any serious book (as Refplace was saying was the same utility as a DF book) on the subject.

Also you're distorting things: I never said AD&D had a greater focus than GURPS (which lacks focus, since it tries to be generic, universal, etc.), but that the AD&D scope is greater than the one acknowledged for Dungeon Fantasy.

The point of the acknowledged focus for Dungeon Fantasy is so that you can get a book that cares about wandering monster attacks and how many pluswhun swords your town can make more than it cares about trade models and inheritance law (or space colonies); because given a mandate to write a GURPS book about settlements Bill Stoddard (for example) would never even consider the former and would certainly produce the latter; which is what the audience would expect from GURPS. AD&D didn't need to make any comparative mission statements about genre, because a) it really only supported the one, and b) the hobby was much less sophisticated then and wasn't really thinking in critical terms about genre anyway.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Do you not agree that the topic is much broader than mere Fighter Keeps and Wizard Towers? Especially if you extend it to any genre and any era?

I don't agree, since the topic here is Fantasy & Dungeon Fantasy and you're going to other unrelated genres. But oh well.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think what people would generally want in a Dungeon Fantasy treatment of settlements is something when like 2e D&D high level fighters got keeps.

And in that case what would be the problem? It could be even expanded as well combining it with other GURPS resources.

If people asks for an specific DF treatment of keeps and lands, I imagine that it's due to that focus is preferred, but well, actually that's up to the ones asking for it.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think a more general GURPS book about establishing and managing settlements would look more like City Stats crossed with Boardroom and Curia crossed with the Low-Tech Companions.

We already have seen that Dungeon Fantasy has no problem in using other GURPS books.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It is however like the rest of the the DF line and specifically has that narrow focus on a specific genre that you are apparently complaining about. (. . .) but I like Dungeon Fantasy as it is.

I'm not complaining about "the specific focus of DF", but pointing to the artificial, exaggerated and crippling narrowness so often attributed to it, which I've shown earlier and is a different thing.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Criminal justice is a pretty important thing for defining a government, how it works is probably a required element of any serious book (as Refplace was saying was the same utility as a DF book) on the subject.

Juries are very important. Now, there are many things very important for defining and running governments, and the mentioned book mentions some. It's a good book that doesn't seek to be exhaustive: it isn't a fault not having an encyclopedic character, and not even GURPS books cover all angles.

I guess you remember when these books were read as game aids and also were springboards for making your own research (for placing it into your game or not). That is even encouraged in the first gamemastering books by Gygax. Which speak of open-endedness —in contrast with narrowness of scope.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

because given a mandate to write a GURPS book about settlements Bill Stoddard (for example) would never even consider the former and would certainly produce the latter

That alone, I can't regard it as an argument.

Incidentally I think many people asking for that kind of sourcebook would be happy with a Pyramid article, as Matt has mentioned, taking from other books, expanding and at the same time focusing things straight into the leading themes of the genre.

[b-dog]

The way I look at DF adding town stuff is that the DF series is the most popular one and it has a lot of support. Many players already have DF PCs so if there were books for town adventures then everything would already be set up for that. DF is supposed to be a Beer and Pretzels game so what is more Beer and Pretzels than doing stuff that is outside the narrow confines of a game? After long periods of exploring dungeons then players want to explore other stuff so it makes sense to have towns and cities that you put your DF PC into.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Yeah, I need to finish that Pyramid article.

Yeah, you really do. don't forget hoardings, trenchworks, and wooden palisades! Oh, and siege engines -- rams, screws, picks, etc.

Now, certainly, there are interfaces which could be built. Say, suggestions for how to elegantly add social skills to DF templates or some sample holdings for land-owning characters using the rules from LTC3 and related works. But these are Pyramid articles or similarly brief treatments. There's no need to alter the mission statement of the DF line.

I think you hit it. Worked examples (a typical village fief, a typical small and large town, the barony, the duchy, small kingdom, large kingdom, etc.) and how the land-owning impacts cost of living, income, allies, etc. All of this is useful for certain types of DF games, especially the sandbox wilderness game.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by demonsbane

I don't agree, since the topic here is Fantasy & Dungeon Fantasy and you're going to other unrelated genres. But oh well.

Well isn't "Fantastic Cities" on the wishlist? At any rate sure there could be a serious but fantasy focused approach to establishing and managing settlements; it still wouldn't necessarily be that useful directly for Dungeon Fantasy, and probably wouldn't be. That book would need to be grounded in realism and research; the DF book would need to based on more game-like concerns. Writing DF is significantly different because you can (and should) just make stuff up and always use the fun choice, even if it is nonsensical or inaccurate.

And in that case what would be the problem? It could be even expanded as well combining it with other GURPS resources.

I don't think there is a problem. I would like a book or article about these topics for Dungeon Fantasy. I just don't think that book would be the same book as the one that would address these topics in a more mainline GURPS way, as Refplace suggests.

I'm not complaining about "the specific focus of DF", but pointing to the artificial, exaggerated and crippling narrowness so often attributed to it, which I've shown earlier and is a different thing.

Well this gets into what I talk about in that blog post about tone, and again I think that without that mission statement signaling a departure from normal GURPS writing, Dungeon Fantasy would have been very different and not the same kind of fun.

[Nemoricus]

Looking over this thread and the DF product line, I've noticed that Dungeon Fantasy as a whole is heavy on ready-to-go rules and light on materials for the GM to build dungeons/wildernesses/adventures with.

Pathfinder and D&D are big on selling adventure modules, which if nothing else gives a GM a basis for building their own. I know that SJ Games isn't very interested in that, though. A DM's Guide to Building Dungeons, Wildernesses, and Adventures, on the other hand, might be very helpful.

To use theater as an analogy, you have actors, you have props, but where's your stage?

[sir_pudding]

They are interested in adventures, these are consistently on the wishlist. The problem is finding authors interested in writing them.

[ULFGARD]

DF can be useful for MH. Want Sidhe warriors? Take your Sidhe template and slap on a Knight, Scout, or Swashbuckler template. Want disposable ninjas? Make them something of a "shadow" creature and throw on the Ninja template. Want an ogre or troll warrior? Slap on the Barbarian template. Using Dungeon Saints and the Mystic Knight (and probably now the Incanter) templates are pretty much instantly useful for extraplanar monsters and/or the players who play them.

It's not 100% out of the box useful, but it isn't very hard to do. Pretty much like using DF templates, etc., in the context of more general fantasy. It might be necessary to make some alterations, but they're simple and small.