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Old 01-30-2016, 03:08 PM   #11
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Lifting

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
How does that work for weightlifting records? Well, competitive weightlifting seems like Extra Effort. That's Will (or Will-based Lifting, if better), rolling at -1 per extra 5% BL, and a cost of 1FP for the attempt, as well as the 1FP/sec for lifting very heavy things. If you make that by five, getting to 10xBL, that puts real-world weightlifting records around the ST16-18 range, for the total of ST, Lifting ST, Arm ST (for some kinds of lifts) and bonuses from Lifting. This is within a stone's throw of reality, and makes some basic Lifting training useful for normal people.

Does that idea seem valid?
The Extra Time proposal make sit easier to get effective Lifting Skill levels into the necessary range but that range is still quite high.

You only get 3 lifting attempts in Olympic competition at weights the competitor selects. Just to get a score you probably set your first attempt at an adjusted Lift of 16- or at least 14-. how much you lower your target and raise your lift would be a matter of intense calculation and gamesmanship.

From what I've seen during watching competitions on TV a conservative progression seems normal. Probably no more than another -1 or 2..A Gursps rules savvy munchkin might think of just trying 3 attempts at an adjusted 9- and I don't think I've ever seen the equivalent in the Real World.

So let me pretend to be a stat normalizer for a minute and crunch some numbers. Let's assume 2 lifters with "real" ST of 16 which is very strong for men who probably don't even weigh as much as the 400lb Gorilla in Campaigns who's only ST15 before you add in the Arm ST.

This gives them a BL of 51 and 2-handed Lift of 408lbs.

Allegedly Kromm is on record as saying that a Skill of 16-18 is usually "best in the world" so we'll set Will-based Lifting with Extra Effort there. This will result in a +10% for every -1 on a success.

so the conservative lifter goes for lifts at an adjusted 16, 15 and 14. Assuming that he makes each one his lifts go from 489 to 530 to 571. More or less World Record territory for the clean and Jerk.

The gambler meanwhile goes for an adjusted 9- or a 35% chance of lifting 90% above his base 408 or 775lbs and with a possible 3 tries this usually works and he owns the record until somebody else takes areal gamble with 3 goes at 8-.

Similar statistical travesties would be seen in other athletic events if the Gurps Extra Effort model was valid for such competitions and this why I don't think it is.
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Old 01-31-2016, 10:31 AM   #12
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Lifting

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Let's assume 2 lifters with "real" ST of 16 which is very strong for men who probably don't even weigh as much as the 400lb Gorilla in Campaigns who's only ST15 before you add in the Arm ST.
Slight side discussion - the Gorillas 400lbs includes what I'd call Build adjustments for having those Long Arms, plus the bonus weight for Arm ST. And they're kind of portly because of the big herbivore gut.

Based on some calculations I did for my Troll in mlangsdorf's game, you can call those arms (The extra length and extra mass) probably around 50 or 60 lbs of "extra" weight that shouldn't be counted in a ST calculation, much like extra weight from Overweight or Fat shouldn't.
Wild Gorillas aren't Overweight in any sense of the term, but that fermenting gut is certainly not contributing ST either.

I guess my point is that it's very hard to compare things with a different body plan.
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Old 01-31-2016, 11:22 AM   #13
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Lifting

I think I've put this on a couple macho tough guys I've statted up from time to time for the same reason as Intimidation, but never actually used it.
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Old 01-31-2016, 05:01 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Lifting

While a Will and/or HT based roll to lift something near or at your one rep max is appropriate, even 5% below that is usually not a roll, and 10% below gets into 2-5 rep max territory. Training routinely asks even unfit individuals to do 10 reps at 80% of their one rep max.

This makes the Will based Lifting roll for Extra Effort a pretty bad fit for matching weightlifting competitions. The reason you stage up, by the way, is to get your muscles used to the higher weights and your mind used to success (which is why I dont object to a Will based roll really, just to how much of a benefit success gives!).

There IS some gamesmanship to Olympic weightlifting, which is either this skill (Lifting) or a Sport skill. Getting your bodyweight low for your ST, planning your attempts to force your opponent out of his comfort zone or introduce doubt, etc. Not a lot of that is going to matter to adventurers though.

Me personally, I would put a "no roll, just do it" lift as 80% of max (BL x 8 for an overhead attempt is fine here). A simple success at this skill or it's HT based default nets you a no-warm up 95%. A Will-based success or a HT based one at 3-5 MOS would get you a 100% of your max with no warm up ( x10 BL). Taking Extra Time represents a couple of practice lifts or other exercise to warm up your muscles, get them used to the weight and increasing the weight, and getting your mind used to the idea too.

Any 100% attempt should probably cost 1 FP. For 80%-95%, Id lean towards a failure on a HT based Lifting roll gets the weight up anyway, but costs 1 FP. Success costs no FP. Very Fit means you have to get 2 failures to lose an FP. Extra Time could involve multiple rolls to judge FP loss, or invoke a MOS based FP loss: 5 or more/ critical success is no FP, 1FP x 1/2 Extra Time multiplier for base success, 1FP x Extra Time multiplier for failure (and missing the lift if above 95%).

Using Heroic Extra Effort (1 FP for MOSx10% based on Will or Will based Lifting) as a cinematic effort is fine, but I wouldnt use it in any kind of calculation for someones ST score. Being able to add 50% to your max, routinely, just by really bearing down and sweating, is not realistic. And how much you can lift just doesnt vary by the kind of range a MOS based formula implies. Unless we're talking 0.5% - 1% swings...

Just thoughts though.
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Old 01-31-2016, 08:41 PM   #15
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Lifting

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Originally Posted by chandley View Post
. Being able to add 50% to your max, routinely, just by really bearing down and sweating, is not realistic. And how much you can lift just doesnt vary by the kind of range a MOS based formula implies. Unless we're talking 0.5% - 1% swings...

Just thoughts though.
These are my thoughts as well. You can get some really silly numbers if you start doing this munchkinly Extra Effort with Sprinting.
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Old 01-31-2016, 09:06 PM   #16
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Lifting

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This is actually debatable. Its original intent appears to be entirely to model weight-lifters, who mostly can't take a step or two while lifting their maximum weight. With quad ST and Extra Effort it's actually much less necessary in 4e in the first place
Modelling only weight-lifters is rather limited. I'm sure that professional furniture movers have lots of techniques for how to get a good grip on items lacking convenient handles. Certainly on those rare occasions where I move stuff, my main problem is getting a good grip, not being strong enough to lift the item alone or with the aid of another person as appropriate (and I'm ST 10 or at the very most 11 in terms of upper body strength).

Then again, I suppose one could remove the Lifting skill entirely, and introduce a Skilled Grip Perk specifically for moving large-but-hard-to-grasp items.
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Old 02-01-2016, 01:42 AM   #17
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Lifting

Extra Effort almost surely was designed to (a) use the standard roll system and (b) work under rather less predictable, adventuring conditions, where results should vary wildly.
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Old 02-01-2016, 01:48 AM   #18
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Lifting

Lifting doesn't just cover weightlifters, but it also covers others such a nurses who have move patients as dead weights.
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