[Powers] Making Affliction- and DoT/Cyclic-based characters viable and effective

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Toxic states "It cannot normally affect machines." This is different from fatigue which says "cannot affect machines." It's that darned "normally" that, IMO, complicates the matter.

The only standard toxic attack I'm aware of that affects machines is radiation, which does so because the target has the Electrical limitation.

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The only standard toxic attack I'm aware of that affects machines is radiation, which does so because the target has the Electrical limitation.

An unmodified toxic attack that is called radiation still a toxic attack that does HP damage. Making it actually cause rad damage is a +25% enhancement, an enhancement that removes the attacks abilities to cause direct HP damage.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Usual and normal are pesky. One of the very definitions of normal is - The usual or expected state, form, amount, or degree. It would seem that the RAW is betting on most toxic attacks to be modified in such a way that the normal use would allow something with the machine meta-trait to be immune to the effects.

We're going to have to disagree on that. It's just as valid to say that RAW is betting on machines that don't have living components to affect. At best that line could be interpreted either way. The first statement (that Toxic is purely cellular damage) prevents it from working on most machines anyway.

Edit: Looking through campaigns, machines are only vulnerable to radiation of they have the Electrical disadvantage (B436). If you have the Machine meta-trait and do not have the Electrical disadvantage you're immune to every effect described in the first sentence of Toxic attack.

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by naloth

We're going to have to disagree on that. It's just as valid to say that RAW is betting on machines that don't have living components to affect. At best that line could be interpreted either way. The first statement (that Toxic is purely cellular damage) prevents it from working on most machines anyway.

Edit: Looking through campaigns, machines are only vulnerable to radiation of they have the Electrical disadvantage (B436). If you have the Machine meta-trait and do not have the Electrical disadvantage you're immune to every effect described in the first sentence of Toxic attack.

Radiation damage is not the same as a "generic" radiation toxic attack that does HP damage. Radiation damage is measured in rads and requires the Radiation damage modifier (+25% for toxic attacks, but then toxic does no HP damage; or +100% for burn to add rad damage in addition to HP damage). I can have an unmodified toxic attack that uses radiation to cause HP damage instead of rad damage. A machine isn't immune to the injury caused by that attack. Radiation Tolerance doesn't protect anyone from that attack.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

I can have an unmodified toxic attack that uses radiation to cause HP damage instead of rad damage. A machine isn't immune to the injury caused by that attack. Radiation Tolerance doesn't protect anyone from that attack.

The description does not say that it's generic damage that works on anything. It (like every other innate attack type) is a type of damage that does specific things.

Toxic attack: "Your attack inflicts cellular damage, in the manner of disease, poison, or radiation." If you have the Machine meta-trait and do not have the Electrical disadvantage you're not vulnerable to any of these. Toxic has a built-in limitation that it only works as a toxin. It doesn't work on things that are completely immune to toxins by design.

It's much more logical this way anyway. Poison, disease, and radiation shouldn't have an effect on a sentient rock or sword even if those are not resistible damaging attacks on humans.

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by naloth

The description does not say that it's generic damage that works on anything. It (like every other innate attack type) is a type of damage that does specific things.

Toxic attack: "Your attack inflicts cellular damage, in the manner of disease, poison, or radiation." If you have the Machine meta-trait and do not have the Electrical disadvantage you're not vulnerable to any of these. Toxic has a built-in limitation that it only works as a toxin. It doesn't work on things that are completely immune to toxins by design.

It's much more logical this way anyway. Poison, disease, and radiation shouldn't have an effect on a sentient rock or sword even if those are not resistible damaging attacks on humans.

The rules you refer to regarding radiation damage is specific to dosage of rads taken. Machines are only affected by accumulated rads if they have electrical. Toxic by default does not inflict accumulated rads for damage. By default it inflicts HP damage. An enhancement is required to change the attack from dice of damage to dice of rads. As for poison, disease, or radiation, every other damage rule listed in Campaigns has poisons, diseases, and even radiation damage (in rads) as resistable. Unmodified Toxic isn't resistable. It is not logical to assume only a part of a rule applies when the books do not explicitly state only that part of the rule applies. I keep pointing out that the description for toxic includes words like "normally" and "usual", and avoids the absolute wording as used in fatigue attack.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

The rules you refer to regarding radiation damage is specific to dosage of rads taken.

Radiation damage is measured in rads. If you want to inflict damage as well as rads the canon way to build it is Burn w/Radiation +100%. Otherwise you'll need to explain: what would radiation damage without radiation be and how can you call that a radiation attack?

Besides, the rule I referred to last was the first line of the Toxic innate attack. If you believe this doesn't apply ("Your attack inflicts cellular damage...") perhaps you should clarify way. Obviously, if it attacks a biological system then lacking such a system would be a pretty good defense. It's a lot like using a inhaled attack against someone that doesn't breathe.

As for poison, disease, or radiation, every other damage rule listed in Campaigns has poisons, diseases, and even radiation damage (in rads) as
resistable. Unmodified Toxic isn't resistable.

That's misleading. Rads aren't resistible even though the effects of accumulating rads are. The beginning of Resistance Roll under Poisons says "some poisons give the victim a HT roll to resist" then details that case. No poison requires a resistance roll. Anyway, it's also quite irrelevant unless you're contending that Toxic attacks (at least poison and disease) must be Resistible because of examples in Campaigns. Otherwise you're arguing that an especially nasty flu that humans couldn't possibly resist (no roll) would also affect automobiles, houses, or even granite statues. I can just imagine my car or house catching my cold with the same coughing, sneezing, and fever. Sure, right. Is that's logical or even how we would want the system to work?

It is not logical to assume only a part of a rule applies when the books do not explicitly state only that part of the rule applies.

From my perspective you're ignoring the whole description of Toxic in favor of "it does 1d damage per level, no drawbacks". I understand that your position on ItMH not really being "completely immune to disease, poison, and radiation" but OTOH you're ignoring the description of Toxic damage too. There's an explicit built-in limitation on the Toxic innate attack requiring it to be a biological attack. It doesn't make sense for it to work on the non-biological.

I keep pointing out that the description for toxic includes words like "normally" and "usual", and avoids the absolute wording as used in fatigue attack.

"Normal machines" which makes sense considering that machines are normally immune to poison and disease but a broad class of them (electrical ones) are affected by radiation. "Usually" have these modifiers which again matches up with stuff Campaigns that describe poison and disease. None of the description under Toxic damage contradicts that it's for living targets.

[vicky_molokh]

Okay, so the thread got off-track and lost below the others. Trying to rise it by summarizing the on-topic parts of it.

Thus, the Four Noble Truths of this topic:
1. When we see DoT-like abilities, we find them weak.
2. We feel they are weak because we crave the same amount off bang-for-buck as instant-damaging abilities.
3. DoT-like traits are expensive because they can be made powerful with the proper build.
4. There must be a way to the proper build(s).

So, does anybody have any ideas what would be the best path to this build? I'm assuming the main path is related to piling on lots of modifiers onto an ability with a low base cost, but it still seems like by the time it does its job, the combat is over. Or is it?

[Sam Baughn]

If combat consists of nothing but running up to the enemy and hitting them until one side is dead, then slow damage effects are generally going to be pretty weak compared to fast ones, since GURPS fights like that tend to be over in a matter of seconds. However, if one group decides to run away after the first few blows, then they become rather more useful.

For instance, if you jump a group of sentries and you need to make sure that none of them escapes to raise the alarm, an area effect cyclic attack is going to be very useful - even if they turn around and run after the first hit, they probably won't survive to reach the nearest guard post. Or if you are an assassin who wants to hit and run, a cyclic attack can be quite efficient both for making sure that your target is going to die eventually and for picking of pursuers.

Alternatively, just make sure that combat runs slowly so your attacks have time to take effect. Good defences, long range, area effect abilities which slow down combat like Obscure and Binding, etc.

These kind of depend on the rest of the party being co-operative though. If you make a character who specialises in hit and run tactics while the rest of the party prefer to stand and fight, you aren't going to be much use to them.

[cccwebs]

1. When we see DoT-like abilities, we find them weak.

Most of the time, people find DoT-like abilities weak because they are too used to instant gratification. They get used to high damage attacks and think that something that can do the same amount of damage compiled over a longer period of time is less effective.

2. We feel they are weak because we crave the same amount off bang-for-buck as instant-damaging abilities.

Again, I think it's more instant bang for buck. In a game where combat turns represent 1 sec and combats don't tend to last more than a minute or two of game time, instant damage tends to be favored by players.

3. DoT-like traits are expensive because they can be made powerful with the proper build.

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of expensive. Toxic 1 (Cyclic, 1 min interval, 10 cycles, +400%; Ignores DR, +300%) [28] is a nasty little attack that'll put a hurtin' on most opponents within 10 minutes. It's powerful, but it's considerably ess expensive than Toxic 10 (Ignores DR, +300%) [160] for the same damage potential.

4. There must be a way to the proper build(s).

The proper builds are already there in the rules. Just think deviously and use Link. For example, Affliction 1 (Extended Duration x10, +40%; Link, +10; Malediction 2, +150%; Paralysis, +150%) [45] and Toxic 1 (Cyclic, 1 min, 10 cycles, +400%; Link, +10%; Malediction 2, +150%) [27] is a nasty little combination that not only effectively removes the opponent from combat (with the Paralysis) but then damages the opponent every minute for the first 10 minutes after the attack. All in all, not bad for 72 points.