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Old 03-17-2023, 03:11 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Whirlwind Attack and Striking Into a Close Combat - accidentally target a rear ally?

I was wondering how the technique on pg 89 of Martial Arts would interact with the SIaCC rules (B392 red box)

Whirlwind Attack is done with a swung weapon (like say, using a giant tunafish as an improvised flail) and must target foes in a clockwise or counterclockwise order.

This made me wonder what might cause you to accidentally strike an ally while doing this sort of thing, because that's what happens in this scene:

https://youtu.be/jxyz288c024

In GURPS terms the only way I know for this to happen is if an ally is sharing a hex with one of your intended targets, if you miss (or get dodged, in this case both intended targets ducked under the tuna) then there's a random chance of hitting your ally if they stand in the same hex.

The 1st intended target is the ginger boy (Zach) who you see duck first, the 2nd is his sister Ivy, who ducks the fish a frame later.

If each were occupying their own hex there would be no added complexity, but it seems like if you miss Zach (or he dodges) on the 1st attack, if Ivy was sharing his hex then you would roll a 2nd time to see if you hit Ivy (like a free attack) before actually doing the 2nd attack targeting Ivy, so she actually has to dodge twice?

Using SIaCC if Zach/Ivy/Ally were all sharing a hex (not sure how many people can fit into one) then that would seem like 2 chances to accidentally hit your ally.

I was thinking though that since it's one continuous motion (ie if the fish actually hit Zach, you wouldn't get a 2nd attack to hit Ivy w/ the Fish except if there was extra energy that knocked Zach into Ivy?) that there might be a way to modify the Whirlwind Attack to take that into account.

It also seems like another drawback we could put into whirlwind-swinging to make it more realistic is what we see here: that if you swing further than intended (you put enough energy into your swing to knock down 2 people - neither get hit) that the excess energy would force you to spin and attack beyond your intended hexes, possibly hitting an ally in a wider arc you weren't aiming for?
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Old 03-17-2023, 04:30 PM   #2
mburr0003
 
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Default Re: Whirlwind Attack and Striking Into a Close Combat - accidentally target a rear al

I will note that the wording of the Technique says "every foe adjacent" not "every person adjacent", so there already is no chance to hit adjacent allies. Unless they're in Close Combat, in which case I'd treat a miss of/successful defense by the foe as a potential hit on the ally. If the foe is hit the ally is technically safe.



I ignore the "determine random hit location" nonsense of Whirlwind Attack and let the attacker pick a "height of attack". It makes no sense to swing randomly at foot level... or be hitting everyone in say the left hand (especially if everyone has shields on the left hands). The height of attack sets the 'random location set" and I roll for each enemy.

And yes, this can mean some enemies get skipped* because their too short, or some get "head, arm, hand, and torso" and others get "torso, arm, hand, and groin" or whatever because of radical height disparities.

* If it's an attack like the 'swung giant fish' or ye olde "I swing my sword in circle around me" or even "cinematic flying roundhouse kick". If it's a 'flurry of swings', then the attacker decides where they're hitting.

Last edited by mburr0003; 03-17-2023 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 03-18-2023, 02:27 AM   #3
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Whirlwind Attack and Striking Into a Close Combat - accidentally target a rear al

Quote:
Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
The height of attack sets the 'random location set" and I roll for each enemy.
If you're striking in an arc chopping at neck level I don't know how you'd actually omit hitting an ally in that arc though, that part's always been weird.

I'm thinking it could be made more realistic (since it's cinematic) by modifying the under-the-hood stuff at http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...62&postcount=8

I'm just not sure how it would work to have a forced attack on the ally in the arc.

I was also thinking rather than a maximum of 6 attacks, you could instead set it at unlimited attacks but a maximum of 6 hits?

After all a miss or a dodge shouldn't slow your spin but hits should detract from that momentum.
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Old 03-18-2023, 07:10 AM   #4
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Default Re: Whirlwind Attack and Striking Into a Close Combat - accidentally target a rear al

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I'm just not sure how it would work to have a forced attack on the ally in the arc.
Treat it more like an Area Attack, it's just not a Large Area Attack, and it's "targettable" to a hit location (random or otherwise).

As for maximum hits, or hits stopping momentum, that's all in how you want the Technique/Skill to work. It can be realistic or as cartoony/cinematic as you like for the campaign.

Last edited by mburr0003; 03-18-2023 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 03-18-2023, 07:35 AM   #5
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Whirlwind Attack and Striking Into a Close Combat - accidentally target a rear al

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
If you're striking in an arc chopping at neck level I don't know how you'd actually omit hitting an ally in that arc though, that part's always been weird.
Or that's not a literal description of what's actually happening. Sure, that's just what videogame characters do in a lot of action RPGs - spin madly at high RPM while rigidly holding a weapon out and moving across the ground. But you could use the same name for an attack where you're not focusing just on one primary target, but just rapidly changing facing and making individual strikes (rapid strikes, though not Rapid Strikes) at individual targets positioned around you. The whirler has the option of not striking at any individual next to them. They could even spare a foe if they wanted.

You could, of course, decide that such an attack deserves some sort of IFF requirement to make that snap decision, resulting in occasional errors. But, as you say, it's supposed to be a cinematic wuxia/chambara/supers kind of thing, so maybe you don't want to bog it down with a series of Perception checks and mistakes.
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Old 03-18-2023, 08:25 AM   #6
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Whirlwind Attack and Striking Into a Close Combat - accidentally target a rear al

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Or that's not a literal description of what's actually happening. Sure, that's just what videogame characters do in a lot of action RPGs - spin madly at high RPM while rigidly holding a weapon out and moving across the ground. But you could use the same name for an attack where you're not focusing just on one primary target, but just rapidly changing facing and making individual strikes (rapid strikes, though not Rapid Strikes) at individual targets positioned around you. The whirler has the option of not striking at any individual next to them. They could even spare a foe if they wanted.
Yeah, Iíve always envisioned Whirlwind Attack as involving doing a 360 turn while striking foes individually, not as a Barbarian from Diablo II holding a weapon out and spinning like a buzzsaw.
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Old 03-19-2023, 10:37 AM   #7
Plane
 
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Default Re: Whirlwind Attack and Striking Into a Close Combat - accidentally target a rear al

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Yeah, Iíve always envisioned Whirlwind Attack as involving doing a 360 turn while striking foes individually, not as a Barbarian from Diablo II holding a weapon out and spinning like a buzzsaw.
Seems like in either case we should have a version used with two weapons which splits the attacks between them
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