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Old 05-19-2012, 07:58 AM   #21
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Default Re: Surprise Rules for Animals

I'd play with the idea of letting surprised animals roll a fright check instead of just giving them mental stun, mostly because animals tend to get scared instead of just surprised in surprise-situations. Or perhaps just take their margin of failure on the PER roll (the one to avoid getting surprised in the first place) and use that to look up on the fright check table, and treat <4 as 4. Unless the margin of failure is very big, it'll mostly yield results such as "stunned for 1 second, then recover/roll vs will". A crit fail on the PER check could be a 1d+"margin of failure" or something. Tweak to taste.
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Old 05-19-2012, 01:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Danukian View Post
Because most non-predators freeze when they are not in a herd and taken by surprise.
If the reason for not giving them combat reflexes was because they froze for extended periods when surprised, there would be no problem. Give them no combat reflexes and let them be frozen. But the OP didn't like that solution.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:08 PM   #23
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Default Re: Surprise Rules for Animals

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Because most non-predators freeze when they are not in a herd and taken by surprise.
That is certainly not my experience. If you encounter a white-tail deer out in the woods where it is not acclimated to humans, it will bound away as soon as it notices you. This occurs for loners, does with fawns, or groups.

Mule deer will often stop and watch you if you don't get too close. When fleeing, they will often stop after some distance and look back. If you surprise them up close, they invariably bolt.

My guess as to why deer freeze in headlights is because they do not know what it is. Whatever "this is a predator" flag they have in their brains isn't tripped. So they stare at it to evaluate the situation, trying to figure out if it is better to run or stand their ground.

And of course there are lots of other non-predator animals other than deer. Mice and rats run as soon as they are disturbed. Grasshoppers hop. Ground squirrels run for their burrows (even if this takes them right on top of the predator - or under the car's wheels). Tortoises withdraw into their shells. Iguanas madly dash up trees. Horses panic and run. And so on.

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Old 05-19-2012, 02:22 PM   #24
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Default Re: Surprise Rules for Animals

Armodillos have a "I have no idea" active reaction, unlike deer. Unfortunately it's "Leap straight up", which tends to take them right into car grilles.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:32 PM   #25
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Default Re: Surprise Rules for Animals

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Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
That is certainly not my experience. If you encounter a white-tail deer out in the woods where it is not acclimated to humans, it will bound away as soon as it notices you. This occurs for loners, does with fawns, or groups.

Mule deer will often stop and watch you if you don't get too close. When fleeing, they will often stop after some distance and look back. If you surprise them up close, they invariably bolt.

My guess as to why deer freeze in headlights is because they do not know what it is. Whatever "this is a predator" flag they have in their brains isn't tripped. So they stare at it to evaluate the situation, trying to figure out if it is better to run or stand their ground.

And of course there are lots of other non-predator animals other than deer. Mice and rats run as soon as they are disturbed. Grasshoppers hop. Ground squirrels run for their burrows (even if this takes them right on top of the predator - or under the car's wheels). Tortoises withdraw into their shells. Iguanas madly dash up trees. Horses panic and run. And so on.

Luke

Deer run from humans, but I've seen them freeze from dogs, cougars, and bear. Mice and rabbits freeze up from cats and dogs. Sheep, cattle and antelope are well known for freezing up in the presence of lions and wolves when separated. I think most animals recognize humans as dangerous, but carnivorous predators as terrifying.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:40 PM   #26
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Deer run from humans, but I've seen them freeze from dogs, cougars, and bear. Mice and rabbits freeze up from cats and dogs. Sheep, cattle and antelope are well known for freezing up in the presence of lions and wolves when separated. I think most animals recognize humans as dangerous, but carnivorous predators as terrifying.
That suggests that they're not freezing due to surprise but rather being stunned by a Fright Check. Which is quite consistent with them having Combat Reflexes.
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Old 05-19-2012, 03:01 PM   #27
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Default Re: Surprise Rules for Animals

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Deer run from humans, but I've seen them freeze from dogs, cougars, and bear. Mice and rabbits freeze up from cats and dogs. Sheep, cattle and antelope are well known for freezing up in the presence of lions and wolves when separated. I think most animals recognize humans as dangerous, but carnivorous predators as terrifying.
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That suggests that they're not freezing due to surprise but rather being stunned by a Fright Check. Which is quite consistent with them having Combat Reflexes.
This also could simply be an instinct to the fact that most of those predators will attack if your running away. However freezing may let you go unnoticed or at least not trigger the pursue mentality if the predator was not hungry anyway.
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Old 05-19-2012, 03:57 PM   #28
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But on the other hand, I'm not comfortable with making IQ a 'dump stat' for warriors. After all, IQ is not just 'deep contemplation', it is also stuff like wits, ability to quickly process information, socially influence people, mentally control your face and bearing while you're filled with emotions inside etc. IQ is not just the ability to study academic skills.
IQ being a dump stat for some kinds of warriors is a good thing, because if everyone needs IQ, its not an interesting point of differentiation. But the fact that IQ is the base for a number of skills useful to even many low-tech warrior concepts (e.g., Camouflage, Leadership, Shadowing, and, particularly, Tactics) suggest it won't be a universal warrior dump-stat, even if it is for some warrior concepts.
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Old 05-19-2012, 04:07 PM   #29
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Because most non-predators freeze when they are not in a herd and taken by surprise.

PER based IQ rolls always made more sense to me anyways - the survivalist with IQ 10 PER 12 shouldn't be less equipped to deal with surprise than the hacker with IQ 12. Even worse: the Absent Minded genius troupe with IQ 15 that bought PER down to 10.
Personally, I think mental stun in general (not just that produced by surprise specifically) probably ought to use Will rather than IQ rolls for recovery.
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Old 05-19-2012, 04:32 PM   #30
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Default Re: Surprise Rules for Animals

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Personally, I think mental stun in general (not just that produced by surprise specifically) probably ought to use Will rather than IQ rolls for recovery.
How does Will help one quickly process a situation that is overwhelming one's comprehension to the point of stunning? Besides, we already have Fright Checks resisted by Will.
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