Help needed: Magic system for an occult horror game

[Varsovian]

Hello there!

I've long been interested in the various occult horror games, especially the ones where you get to play witches, spellcasting occultists etc. I know both Mage: the Ascension and Mage: the Awakening, I also know C.J. Carrella's Witchcraft... Somehow, though, none of these games fits my idea of an occult game I'd like to play. Ascension has a good magic system, but is too comic-booky, Awakening is a bit too light for me when it comes to the tone - and Witchcraft uses Unisystem, which I really don't want to learn. So, I'm toying around with the idea of using GURPS for this kind of game... The question is, what kind of magic system to use?

Yes, I do have Thaumatology... :D Still, I just can't come up with anything workable. Maybe you guys could help me out?

The design parameters, so to say, are this:

1. I'd like the game to be scary and dark - using World of Darkness analogues, I'm thinking more of Hunter: the Vigil than Mage: the Awakening.

2. I don't want the occultists in this game to be too powerful - so, I don't want the to summon fireballs with a snap of fingers.

3. I'd like the system to allow for various and semi-realistic styles of magic: Hermetic magic, shamanism, alchemy etc.

4. I'd like the system to allow for creative spellcasting and the occultists coming up with new uses for their magic. The thing I loved in Ascension was that a mage that was, say, adept in the sphere of mind, wasn't just learning a multitude of mind-related spells, but gained a deeper understanding of mind magic and could figure out new uses for it...

Any ideas as to handle it?

BTW. Here's a great clip from Season 3 of Penny Dreadful that kind of shows the way I'd like to portray magic in my game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HBRGfu5HVQ

Okay, so I'm not saying that I want there to be black magic only! But the scene has the elements I'm interested in: an extended ritual, some improvisation... Other possible inspirations could be The Invisibles and Hellblazer comic books.

[sir_pudding]

Path or Book magic, or Ritual Path Magic if you want improvisation. You might want to also use Corruption from Horror.

[Christopher R. Rice]

So, I'm a pretty big fan of Penny Dreadful. If I were you I'd use Effect-Shaping Ritual Path Magic and disallow Ritual Adept completely. Maybe use some of the laws from GURPS Thaumatology (e.g., Law of Contagion).

[johndallman]

The best choice depends on the amount of flexibility and improvisation you want, and the trade-off between advance preparation and in-play calculation you prefer.

Realm Magic requires a fair bit of work before the campaign can start, since you have to define its realms and their levels - you can produce systems very much like M:tA using it - but allows very flexible improvisation, provided the GM is willing to make rulings on the fly. It doesn't require much arithmetic during play. You will have to limit it to prevent overt damage effects.

Ritual Path Magic doesn't require much work before the campaign, and has flexible improvisation, but does require a fair amount of arithmetic during play. Once you get used to that, it's quite quick, but there's a definite learning curve. Again, you have to limit it to prevent fireballs.

Path/Book Magic has a limited list of effects, but they're pretty flexible. It isn't strongly improvisational, but that does make it easy to avoid magicians blowing stuff up.

If you want to plug Corruption into these magic systems, it's reasonably easy. For Realm Magic, give the caster a point of Corruption for each Realm level in a working. Ritual Path Magic, in its default Energy Accumulating mode would be a point of Corruption for each 10 energy, or thereabouts (RPM energy costs are on their own scale); in Effect Shaping mode, allow a caster to pay off penalties by taking Corruption points 1:1. For Path/Book Magic, use the same Effect Shaping rules as RPM, and for Energy Accumulating, made it a point of Corruption per 5 energy points.

[Kelly Pedersen]

One thing you could consider doing is merging a couple of magic systems. You could combine Path/Book and Realm magic, for instance, to get both the occult feel of Path/Book, and the flexibility of Realm.

Here's how I'd do that - I'd use Paths, not Books. Each Path would line up with a Realm - if there's a Path of Chance, there's a Realm of Chance, and so on. The same skill would be used for each as well. Using the skill for improvised magic would have a penalty - I like -5, but you could set it however you liked for the feel you wanted. I'd probably say you'd have to buy at least the first level of each Realm to put points in the associated skill, but you could change that too, to allow only certain select casters to be truly improvisational.

I would definitely tie traits like Ritual Adept to the levels in the Realms, though. If you had four levels to each Realm, for example, then characters would need to buy the second level in the Realm before they could buy Path Adept level 1, the third level in the Realm for Path Adept level 2, and so on.

To preserve the "ritual" feel for the Realm magic, you can increase the casting time for improvised Realm magic, and allow the Time Spent rules from Basic to give bonuses for longer castings, or reduce the time with penalties. I like 10 minutes as a base time - that means that it still takes a minute to cast a spell even at -9 penalty for time reduction, and conversely, if a caster is going for the full bonus for extra time, that it takes 300 minutes (5 hours) to get a +5 (also neatly cancelling out that -5 I suggested for improvised casting!). I'd let casters with Path Adept with Time as the element also reduce the time for improvisational casting, as long as a spell was of one level lower than their max level in the Realm. So someone with Realm of Chance level 3 and Path Adept (Time) could do an improvised casting of Chance in only 1d seconds, as long as they were doing a Chance level 2 or lower effect.

[Varsovian]

Okay, so a few quick thoughts:

I really like the Path/Book magic, although it doesn't allow for improvisation. But, maybe, with a sufficienty broad list of rituals, I wouldn't need improvisation at all? Maybe a broad list of rituals would cover all of the sensible uses of magic anyway?

(BTW. I admit I don't really get why the rituals in P/B magic are supposed to be flexible. They seem pretty specific to me...)

I also like Realm magic, but it can be pretty powerful. But, maybe, it could be limited, by designing the Realms the way that even the highest possible Realm level allows only for limited control of the phenomena? Also, when it comes to Realm magic, I'd *definitely* want to increase the casting time - and introduce practices, too.

Ritual Path magic seems nice, but it really seems powerful - it seems to allow for stuff like creating a whole living human out of thin air, for example. I have no idea how to limit that... Also, I admit that I don't like the idea of a core magic skill (i.e. Thaumatology) - I don't like the fact that a spellcaster would be able to use all of the Paths just by virtue of knowing the basics of magic. I prefer stuff like shamans who have no idea how to work matter magic, alchemists who are completely at lost when it comes to the matters of spirits and ghosts etc. Would it break the RPM system if I erased the core skill and made the Path skills necessary to learn separately?

As for merging P/B magic and Realm magic systems - Kelly, could you expand on the idea? I'm not sure I can picture the system yet...

BTW. How about going the other way around: using the Realm magic, but also introducing set rituals as specific effects ("rotes", using the Mage terminology) that could be used more easily?

EDIT: Or, maybe, how about something like this:

The system would be P/BM with an option for improvised rituals. Here's my thinking: each pre-defined ritual is a technique of the Path skill at some default. Each Path is backed by some general idea of what it could accomplish - also, there seems to be a hierarchy to the rituals, with the lesser effects being easier and the more powerful or more complicated effects being harder. So...

... how about introducing a couple of "improvisational" techniques for each Path? There could be relatively easy technique covering using the Path for improvised sensory effects, a more difficult technique for improvised control effects, ever more difficult technique for transformations etc. And, if a spellcaster doesn't have a ready ritual for some specific situation, he could use these techniques to use his knowledge of the Path's magical concepts and kitbash a working. Of couse, such improvised rituals would be more difficult to execute than the normal rituals that have been tried out by other magicians etc.

I don't know, does it sound like a good idea?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Varsovian

As for merging P/B magic and Realm magic systems - Kelly, could you expand on the idea? I'm not sure I can picture the system yet...

Sure! Let's do a little worked example to demonstrate what I'm talking about. Say you have 6 Realms - Matter, Energy, Life, Spirit, Chance, and Time. There would also be 6 Paths, covering the same things. Let's say there's 6 levels to each (using the breakdown from Thaumatology in the "More Levels: Higher and Lower Mysteries" section), and no inaccessible areas, so final cost per level in a Realm will be 20 points.

For the Paths, we'll have to go through the list of rituals available, and assign them to appropriate Paths. Let's use the Path of Chance as an example. Here's the rituals I'd include with it (with their default to the path skill in parentheses):

Calm the Winds (Path of Chance-4)
Thunderbolt (Path of Chance-8)
Gremlins (Path of Chance-3)
Locate Spares (Path of Chance-5)
Machines Hate You (Path of Chance-5)
Fertility (Path of Chance-4)
Vision of Luck (Path of Chance-5)
Chaperone (Path of Chance-3)
Doom (Path of Chance-8)
Gambler's Token (Path of Chance-0)
Hunter's Blessing (Path of Chance-4)
Journeyman's Blessing (Path of Chance-3)
Journeyman's Curse (Path of Chance-3)
Love Charm (Path of Chance-3)
Loyal Item (Path of Chance-4)
Stroke of Luck (Path of Chance-1)
Weapon Blessing (Path of Chance-6)
Windfall (Path of Chance-2)
Curse Sanctum (Path of Chance-0, can only protect against Chance curses)
Dispel Ritual (Path of Chance-4, can only dispel Chance rituals)
Ghost Shirt (Path of Chance-8)
Ward (Path of Chance-3, only blocks Chance rituals or entities summoned or controlled with Chance)

The Path/Realm skills are the same thing - we'll call them all "Path Skills" for simplicity. Let's also say that while Path Skills default to the core skill, they aren't capped by it, as per usual Path/Book Magic - we want a setting where someone can get very skilled in a particular type of magic without being an overall occult genius. Let's also assume that someone can purchase skill in a Path without any levels in the associated Realm, to represent people whose magical knowledge is purely "rote" - they have no natural gift for that area of magic, but they can do the rituals, make the gestures, and so forth, and exploit the natural tricks to make the world produce a result. We'll further use my suggestion of -5 for improvised (that is, Realm-based) casting, and a base time for such casting of 10 minutes.

Since you don't need to have any levels of Realm to start getting magical skill, I think it's fair to tie Path Adept to the 1st, 3rd, and 5th levels of the Realms. I think it's further fair to say that Adepts always have to choose elements in the order of ritual space, time, and finally material/symbolic components. That keeps the "ritual" elements in place as long as possible.

So, let's say we're building Sarah Wen, Occult Private Investigator. She's got decent occult skills overall, with Ritual Magic at 17. The Path skills all default off that at -6, so she can give most rituals a shot at 11, minus their default penalty, but plus any bonuses Sarah can scare up. Besides the defaults, Sarah is actually skilled at magic affecting probability, and souls and minds. She takes Path of Chance-16, and Path of Spirit-14. Besides all this, Sarah also has a native gift to touch the fundamental forces of Chance directly - she takes Level 2 in the Realm of Chance, letting her use the "control and diversion" level spontaneously, without a specific ritual. Since she qualifies for it, she also buys Path Adept 1 (One Path Only, Path of Chance, -40%), choosing the ritual space element.

At the start of her latest case, Sarah wants a little extra protection, so she casts the Chaperone ritual. Later on, she does some mind reading, using her Path of Spirits to do Read Thoughts. At the climax of the adventure, she's trapped in a burning building with a demonically-possessed being stalking her. She doesn't have any rituals or charms to bring to bear, but she notices that her pursuer is moving around near some very flammable-looking chemical drums. She decides to do some spontaneous casting. Her player proposes that "Cause one of those drums to spring a leak, they look pretty rusty" is a reasonable Chance/2 effect, and the GM agrees. Since she's running short on time, Sarah needs to cast this one fast. It would normally take 10 minutes to cast, so if she wants to do it in 1 minute, she'll have to take -9. Additionally, the target is several yards away, so that's an extra penalty. Sarah decides that the situation is dire enough to call on some dark forces, so she whispers a Name she knows and accepts 18 points of Corruption, cancelling the speed and range penalties. She rolls at Path of Chance-5 (for an improvised casting), and rolls a 10 - success by 1. Her spell goes off, the barrel springs its leak, explodes as the stuff catches fire, and the possessed host is blown to Hell. Now Sarah just needs to deal with that pesky stain on her soul from dealing with the infernal herself...

Originally Posted by Varsovian

BTW. How about going the other way around: using the Realm magic, but also introducing set rituals as specific effects ("rotes", using the Mage terminology) that could be used more easily?

You can get that effect with pretty much standard Realm magic. Just go through the system, defining several effects, and allow characters to buy techniques in the Realm skill for those specific effects.

[Varsovian]

Kelly, I have to hit the bed right now, so I'll be able to comment on your system tomorrow... But before I go, out of curiosity: have you seen the edit in my last post about introducing improvisation to P/BM magic? I wonder what you think about it...

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Varsovian

.

EDIT: Or, maybe, how about something like this:

The system would be P/BM with an option for improvised rituals. Here's my thinking: each pre-defined ritual is a technique of the Path skill at some default. Each Path is backed by some general idea of what it could accomplish - also, there seems to be a hierarchy to the rituals, with the lesser effects being easier and the more powerful or more complicated effects being harder. So...

... how about introducing a couple of "improvisational" techniques for each Path? There could be relatively easy technique covering using the Path for improvised sensory effects, a more difficult technique for improvised control effects, ever more difficult technique for transformations etc. And, if a spellcaster doesn't have a ready ritual for some specific situation, he could use these techniques to use his knowledge of the Path's magical concepts and kitbash a working. Of couse, such improvised rituals would be more difficult to execute than the normal rituals that have been tried out by other magicians etc.

I don't know, does it sound like a good idea?

Kinda like mixing in Symbol magic concepts which RPM did.
It could work. Based on what I read for what you want I might go with something like this..

• Thaumatology for Core Skill
• Each Path is its own Skill
• Each Ritual is a Technique which can buy off the penalty for that Ritual only
• Each Path has Verb like effects you can buy as Techniques (Sense, Control, Create, Weaken, Strengthen, etc)
• Preset Rituals represent common and well known uses of the Path
• Improvised Rituals can be created and Techniques in Verbs can offset the improvisation penalties (I recommend using the lowest Technique that applies)

Its pretty doable, the only difficulty is figuring out the penalties to Improvise. Book/Path magic is I feel supposed to allow improvisation already but its weakness is no mechanics for penalties or energy cost are presented.
I would start with the RPM system as a guide, Pyramid 3/66 The Laws of Magic can be useful here. It has rules for converting RPM to Effect Shaping.
Or just eyeball it. Sense -1 Skill, Control -3 Skill, Strengthen/Weaken -2 Skill, Transform and Destroy -5 Skill.
Then apply normal paramaters for target, range, etc.

For such a system I would treat each Realm as a Talent as well as a cap on how much damage or effect you can achieve and limit the levels of effective Ritual Adept you can apply to that Path.
So a Realm acts a lot like Magery.
I would not require buying Ritual Adept more than once, just it an only apply based on your Realm level.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Varsovian

But before I go, out of curiosity: have you seen the edit in my last post about introducing improvisation to P/BM magic?

I hadn't seen it, no.

Originally Posted by Varsovian

The system would be P/BM with an option for improvised rituals. Here's my thinking: each pre-defined ritual is a technique of the Path skill at some default. Each Path is backed by some general idea of what it could accomplish - also, there seems to be a hierarchy to the rituals, with the lesser effects being easier and the more powerful or more complicated effects being harder. So...

... how about introducing a couple of "improvisational" techniques for each Path? There could be relatively easy technique covering using the Path for improvised sensory effects, a more difficult technique for improvised control effects, ever more difficult technique for transformations etc.

It sounds interesting, yeah! I'd go with Refplace's suggestion of using the Verbs from syntactic magic as the basis for the techniques.

To add a little to the discussion, here's the penalties I'd assign for each of the Verbs:

Move -2
Communicate -4
Heal -4
Protect -4
Strengthen -4
Weaken -4
Control -6
Create -6
Sense -6
Transform -8

(I got those numbers by taking the suggested energy cost for the Verbs from Thaumatology, adding 1, and doubling. It seems to produce good numbers.)

You'd want to go over the pre-built techniques, and make sure that none of them had a higher default penalty than what you could accomplish with just using the Verbs, or at least ensure that the rituals were all more effective than the improvised ones.

You could also include some means for casters to create new rituals. I'd suggest using the Invention rules for that. Instead of using the normal complexity penalty, though, I'd instead take the penalty from the most appropriate Verb for the effect, double it, and add any penalties from other Verbs that seemed appropriate as well. The final ritual default penalty, once you actually invented it, would be equal to the greatest penalty for any Verb involved, plus half the penalty of all others, reduced by 2 if the ritual was roughly equal in power to what could be improvised.

If we're using the Invention rules, it makes sense to allow Gadgeteer-equivalent to improve the process, too. How you cost this depends on how you see Gadgeteer working by default - if it only applies to "technological" inventions, then the version that affects magic instead would cost the full 25/50 points. If, on the other hand, you interpret Gadgeteer as applying to any invention process, then it would apply to magical ones as well, so only applying to magic would then be a limitation. I favour the latter interpretation, personally, and I think there's some support for it - Zombies, for instance, has the Specialized limitation for Gadgeteer, limiting it to only a particular field of invention, and Magic is explicitly one of the categories. So, let's go with that. I'd call "Only to create new rituals" a -60% limitation, as long as there are other magical things a character could potentially invent in the setting (alchemical formulas, magical weapons, etc.). Let's call the limitation "Ritual Shaper", to make it sound a bit better. With the rules I suggested for creating new rituals above, Gadgeteer would only include the full penalty of the most significant Verb, and halve the penalties of other contributing verbs (the final ritual penalty would still be set by the full Verb penalties). Quick Gadgeteer would have it's usual effect on time to invent the ritual.

So, for example, say you were trying to create a ritual for the Path of Chance, designed to detect when an enemy is trying to use "chance-based" advantages to attack someone, and essentially "flip the sign" on them - Luck changes to Unluckiness, Serendipity to Weirdness Magnet, and so forth. That's pretty clearly Transformation of Chance, so that's the penalty to use: -8. But the ritual also has to detect chance-based advantages before they get used, in order to swap them before they take effect, so we'll throw in Sense as well, -6. So the final penalty to research this ritual is -22 (conveniently, the same penalty as an Amazing invention!). Inventing this ritual will require one roll against an appropriate skill (Thaumatology or Ritual Magic, whichever you think is appropriate) for the concept, then a roll to "prototype" it, which would take 3d months per roll. The final ritual would default from the Path of Chance at -11 (-8 for transformation, -3 from Sense, no reduction because this is stronger than I'd allow basic improvised transformation to accomplish).

If the ritual inventor had Gadgeteer (Ritual Shaper, -60%), the penalty for inventing the ritual would be only -11 (-8 from Transformation, half of -6 for Sense). If they had Quick Gadgeteer with the Ritual Shaper limitation, they would additionally only need 1d minutes for a Concept roll, and 4d hours to cook up the ritual itself.

Edited to add: Another idea I just thought of - in this system, "Improvisation" is a reasonable element for the Path Adept advantage to reduce the penalties for. I'd suggest reducing the penalties for the Verbs above either by 2, or dividing them by 2, whichever is better for the Adept.