[MA] Push and Push Kick differences?

[Ultraviolet]

Unless I misread the Push Kick technique from MA, these two attacks do the same 'damage'; Thr x2 (for knockback purposes only). This seems the ok damage, since kicks are straight thrust, right?
Alternatively I misremember the 'ordinary' Push, which should be thr-1, like most punches. Although this isn't a punch, but a two-handed attack, or what? Is there any difference whether you push with one or two hands?

Or should the Push Kick somehow be based on ST+2, like most leg-techniques use +2 ST but -2 DX?

And would a Push get bonus damage from Sumo (only), while a Push Kick from either Brawling or Karate?

Note, there seems to be some slight difference in the two attacks, where a Push Kick aimed at a leg, confers a -2 DX for the foe to keep standing up.

Last question: Has anybody had any luck with a Push in actual play? My ST 12, Sumo at DX+1 guy failed to cause any knockback the times he tried...bad luck perhaps?

[Mr Frost]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

Unless I misread the Push Kick technique from MA, these two attacks do the same 'damage'; Thr x2 (for knockback purposes only). This seems the ok damage, since kicks are straight thrust, right?
Alternatively I misremember the 'ordinary' Push, which should be thr-1, like most punches. Although this isn't a punch, but a two-handed attack, or what? Is there any difference whether you push with one or two hands?

Or should the Push Kick somehow be based on ST+2, like most leg-techniques use +2 ST but -2 DX?

And would a Push get bonus damage from Sumo (only), while a Push Kick from either Brawling or Karate?

Note, there seems to be some slight difference in the two attacks, where a Push Kick aimed at a leg, confers a -2 DX for the foe to keep standing up.

Last question: Has anybody had any luck with a Push in actual play? My ST 12, Sumo at DX+1 guy failed to cause any knockback the times he tried...bad luck perhaps?

A pushkick doesn't always push the target back very far .
In Muay Thai , it's mostly used to either throw the other guy off His rythm or to get a bit more room between you if He is getting too close {trying to grapple etc} .

It can cause what in G.U.R.P.S. is knockback , but this is either when the opponents' footing is off {caught mid stride at a bad moment} or you have taken a sort of "walk up" {like a run up but only 2 steps :) } .

I remember a combination I used to practise when I taught Muay Thai that was a push kick followed by a sort of very tight yet circular low sissors kick {we rarely bothered naming things , the moves themselves were what mattered} that you would use on very agressive opponents that you could count on to step forward imediately following the pushkick {a predictable opponent is a gift that keeps on giving :) } and thus walk straight into the actually damaging part of the combination .
It worked because a push kick against someone of equal size and strength will quite often be still standing and still in the "same hex" so to speak .

Against a weaker target or if you have significant buildup {extra effort I suppose} it can throw knock them on their arse though .
Get that Sumo to the Jym stat !

[Kromm]

The significant difference is in how effect is calculated:

A shove (not "push") inflicts thrust/crushing damage, but at -1 per die if you use one hand and not two, doubled to find knockback but inflicting no actual harm. Since you can roll vs. Sumo Wrestling to hit, you may add your bonus from that skill (+1 per die at DX+1, +2 per die at DX+2 or better).

A Push Kick inflicts standard kicking damage, doubled to find knockback but inflicting no actual harm. Kicking damage is normally thrust/crushing. Since it can be based on Brawling or Karate, you may add the relevant damage bonus (+1 per die for Karate at DX or Brawling at DX+2, +2 per die for Karate at DX+1 or better).

So for two people of equal ST and equivalent skill bonuses, a two-handed shove and a Push Kick are equally effective (a one-handed shove is slightly anemic relative to either). The main difference is what skills you're good at.

Push Kick has the side benefit of using the leg's long reach to deliver its force effectively above or below the target's center of mass, giving a DX penalty if the attack causes knockback at all.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The significant difference is in how effect is calculated:

A shove (not "push") inflicts thrust/crushing damage, but at -1 per die if you use one hand and not two, doubled to find knockback but inflicting no actual harm. Since you can roll vs. Sumo Wrestling to hit, you may add your bonus from that skill (+1 per die at DX+1, +2 per die at DX+2 or better).

A Push Kick inflicts standard kicking damage, doubled to find knockback but inflicting no actual harm. Kicking damage is normally thrust/crushing. Since it can be based on Brawling or Karate, you may add the relevant damage bonus (+1 per die for Karate at DX or Brawling at DX+2, +2 per die for Karate at DX+1 or better).

So for two people of equal ST and equivalent skill bonuses, a two-handed shove and a Push Kick are equally effective (a one-handed shove is slightly anemic relative to either). The main difference is what skills you're good at.

Push Kick has the side benefit of using the leg's long reach to deliver its force effectively above or below the target's center of mass, giving a DX penalty if the attack causes knockback at all.

Well, that answers it. The Kick actually *does* do more damage than the hand-push - for using only one hand. But since they normally use both hands, they are the same here.

Sure, what to use is mostly based on whether you have high Sumo or Brawling/Karate, for the damage bonus.

Is the penalty to DX roll to avoid falling down for all Push Kicks? I thought it was only for those aimed at the legs?

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

Is the penalty to DX roll to avoid falling down for all Push Kicks? I thought it was only for those aimed at the legs?

Also the face!

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

Sure, what to use is mostly based on whether you have high Sumo or Brawling/Karate, for the damage bonus.

A bigger issue would be if you are armed or not, wouldn't it?

[chris1982]

Originally Posted by Mr Frost

In Muay Thai , it's mostly used to...

In Muay Thai the Push Kick can be used as
1) An attack (normal kick)
2) A defence (would be legs parry in GURPS)
3) A Feint/ Ruse
4) A Push Kick in GURPS terms

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by chris1982

In Muay Thai the Push Kick can be used as
1) An attack (normal kick)
2) A defence (would be legs parry in GURPS)
3) A Feint/ Ruse
4) A Push Kick in GURPS terms

It is called Front kick.
If you use full extension of body backwards and leg forwards(opening your body as spring) youll get Push kick.

It is very versatile weapon in Muay Thai arsenal.It cant end fights on its own(as Muay Thai side rotation kick;full weight iof body is behind impacting shin in ideal circumstances) but can set-up attacks or enhance defence.

Very best thing about it is that 1st 50-60% of execution is same,regardless intention(push,feint,bash,kick) which gives defender small margin of error while defending.

Edit: It is actually one of easiest kicks to learn how to execute properly,and Imo is most useful for Boxers preparing to go into full contact bouts.

[chris1982]

Originally Posted by Agramer

It cant end fights on its own

It seems you never received one in the face... ;-)

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by chris1982

It seems you never received one in the face... ;-)

I was Champion of Croatia in Semi contact 17y old,Full Contact-5th in Yugoslavia(Croatia was than part of Yugoslavia) seniors 18y old,Full Contact-2st Croatia 18 Y Old,1st Croatia Muay Tai 20y old....
(before I trained a bit:Budokai,Wrestling,Judo,Tea Kwon Do and Karate)
....so I reckon I delivered a lot of those :)))

I have never seen knock-out from front kick,though it is possible but very,very rare occurrence.
.
Front kick hits to face(heel to jaw or part of foot below toes to face/nose) is usually just 1st step in some offensive combination.
-hits to tight can be used both as off and def(breaking opps combination or dis balancing him and attacking)
-hits to body are usually defensive in nature(unless targeting liver) or as push,while evaluating opponent.