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Old 07-08-2019, 10:08 AM   #11
MikMod
 
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
Note that this also means an illusionary wall can actually support and protect from physical things.

Walls are as expensive or more expensive than illusions, btw, so why anyone would learn and use them instead of illusions is beyond me. Who disbelieves a wall?
Erm, I'm pretty sure that RAW that is not the case.

P.139: An illusion cannot affect any inanimate object; its effects are wholly mental and are the product of the wizards mind and the minds of those who see the illusion

So it might LOOK like the wall is holding up a heavy weight, but it is not - just like the armour looks damaged, but its only the person inside that actually suffers harm...
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:10 AM   #12
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by xane View Post
RAW Page 139 says "An illusion cannot affect any inanimate object".
Yup - "an illusion ... can never open doors" for instance
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:10 AM   #13
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

You could imagine a situation, say a enemy is hanging from a rope over a lava pit, you could create an illusionary knife to cut the rope he is holding and he will believe he falls into the lava and suffers massive burns and dies, but in reality he is still hanging there and the rope is uncut.
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:21 AM   #14
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

In fact, I think you could argue that illusions are mass hypnosis, though perhaps not quite as we have them on earth:

"An illusion[s] ... effects are the product of the wizards mind and the minds of those who see the illusion" (p139). And

"The wizard himself must believe in an illusion to cast it - this is the kind of self-control required to become a mage" (p138)

"An illusory pit ... You cant really fall into it - but you can think you're falling" (p138)

Many examples of "no mind - no effect" situations...

And my touchstone here:

"General rule for GMs in such cases: The illusion behaves as though the world were exactly as its master thinks it is."
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:27 AM   #15
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Also, p139 says that illusions of fire, wall, shadow, handheld weapons, and rope "behave like the real thing". I.e. an illusion of fire can actually burn your clothing. An illusionary knife can cut through a rope. The text says these kinds of illusion have somehow acquired extra power.
Also! Can we leave these special cases out of the discussion for the time being? Personally I'd like to nail the general rules before we start adding or focusing on exceptions*.


* and I house-rule these exceptions out in any case.
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Old 07-08-2019, 11:02 AM   #16
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by xane View Post
RAW Page 139 says "An illusion cannot affect any inanimate object".
The second-to-bottom paragraph on the left side of p139 that starts with,
Illusions of Inanimate Objects: An illusion of fire, wall, or shadow will behave just like the real thing until it vanishes or is disbelieved. The same is true for an illusion of a hand- held weapon or a Magic Rope. Mages theorize this is true because these few inanimate objects are so often seen as illusions that they have somehow acquired extra power.
So illusions of fire, walls, shadow, hand-held weapons, and magic rope behave "just like the real thing". So illusionary fire does burn things, etc.

The rest of the paragraph goes into further explanation.
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Old 07-08-2019, 11:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
The second-to-bottom paragraph on the left side of p139 that starts with,
Illusions of Inanimate Objects: An illusion of fire, wall, or shadow will behave just like the real thing until it vanishes or is disbelieved. The same is true for an illusion of a hand- held weapon or a Magic Rope. Mages theorize this is true because these few inanimate objects are so often seen as illusions that they have somehow acquired extra power.
So illusions of fire, walls, shadow, hand-held weapons, and magic rope behave "just like the real thing". So illusionary fire does burn things, etc.

The rest of the paragraph goes into further explanation.
Yeah, I can see that. Did you see my post asking us NOT to focus on this small and weird set of exceptions, but instead look at how illusions and images generally work?
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Old 07-08-2019, 11:23 AM   #18
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
Also! Can we leave these special cases out of the discussion for the time being? Personally I'd like to nail the general rules before we start adding or focusing on exceptions*.


* and I house-rule these exceptions out in any case.
That's a GM's prerogative. This is all just to show that illusions are not strictly "mental", that they're made of a "knot of forces" (i.e. they really do have a location), and that they follow the normal rules for creations -- if it's a creature, you can objectively see out of its eyes (you get a mobile point of view, not mental impressions that your mind makes up).
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Old 07-08-2019, 11:24 AM   #19
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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Yeah, I can see that. Did you see my post asking us NOT to focus on this small and weird set of exceptions, but instead look at how illusions and images generally work?
No I did not. I have a really bad Internet connection here.

Also, I was answering someone else and you're not the original poster.

Last edited by zot; 07-08-2019 at 11:25 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 07-08-2019, 11:27 AM   #20
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Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

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That's a GM's prerogative. This is all just to show that illusions are not strictly "mental", that they're made of a "knot of forces" (i.e. they really do have a location), and that they follow the normal rules for creations -- if it's a creature, you can objectively see out of its eyes (you get a mobile point of view, not mental impressions that your mind makes up).
Yes, but you are extensively quoting and then extrapolating from the exceptions text rather than the general text for illusions. I believe this leads you into a very different view of illusions to mine.

A truly summoned creature is certainly really there in a way an illusion is not. It actually has real eyes for a start, whereas your illusion 'behaves as its master thinks the world is' not how it really is. So it's visual 'reports' aren't based on actual eyes, but on 'the mind of the wizard' and what he knows about the world. Compare with the passage on gates...
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