New Social Stigma idea

[awesomenessofme1]

This has been bouncing around in my head for a bit. I've been making a custom android template for a Monster Hunters inhuman, and I'm trying to find a good way to represent their ambiguous social status. I think I've found a decent way to model it, but I'm looking for feedback.

Social Stigma (No Legal Status) [-10]

You are a well-preserved undead, dimensional traveler, or highly advanced android. Your status cannot be seen by a simple visual observation, but the most cursory legal investigation will reveal it. You have no birth certificate, identification, or citizenship (at least, not anymore) and cannot get any. Many things are simply off-limits to you, including almost all licenses, and if you ever end up in government custody, you will have no legal rights. This will rarely result in direct reaction penalties.

It's essentially a toned-down version of Social Stigma (Dead), with bits from other Social Stigmas mixed in.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

This has been bouncing around in my head for a bit. I've been making a custom android template for a Monster Hunters inhuman, and I'm trying to find a good way to represent their ambiguous social status. I think I've found a decent way to model it, but I'm looking for feedback.

Social Stigma (No Legal Status) [-10]

You are a well-preserved undead, dimensional traveler, or highly advanced android. Your status cannot be seen by a simple visual observation, but the most cursory legal investigation will reveal it. You have no birth certificate, identification, or citizenship (at least, not anymore) and cannot get any. Many things are simply off-limits to you, including almost all licenses, and if you ever end up in government custody, you will have no legal rights. This will rarely result in direct reaction penalties.

It's essentially a toned-down version of Social Stigma (Dead), with bits from other Social Stigmas mixed in.

But, don't you automatically have Zeroed (10) and all of it's associated advantages?

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by aesir23

But, don't you automatically have Zeroed (10) and all of it's associated advantages?

Zeroed is an active ability. If you have Zeroed, not only are there no records on you, no records on you can be formed, at least not for very long. I remember reading a thread on that subject at some point, it's not clear in the Basic Set. The way this would work, you start the game with no records (or possibly some, depending on if you took other relevant disadvantages) in the system, but there's nothing stopping a trail from forming around you.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by aesir23

But, don't you automatically have Zeroed (10) and all of it's associated advantages?

No. The advantage of zeroed is "People keep losing your records". So if you get arrested, your mug shot and your fingerprints, your whole file disappears. If you leave fingerprints at the scene of a crime, they'll lose those too. Security camera footage? Oh no, there was a glitch. People's cell phone video? Get's messed up. What's more, it only happens if you don't need those records to exist. You can have a bank account (under a fake ID) and they won't lose i while it's open, but the moment you shut it down, all trace of it is gone from the system. Zeroed is so much more than just "I don't have a birth certificate". Which really isn't useful at all.

[awesomenessofme1]

Here's the relevant Kromm post:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Do realize that Zeroed isn't meant to be an initial condition that wears off the first time somebody takes your picture. It assumes maintenance, and some off-screen means of achieving that. You're Zeroed now and, a few weeks later when your picture shows up again, you're still Zeroed because whatever means made you Zeroed in the first place nuked the records. That's how it works.

Those whose worlds don't assume forces powerful enough to wipe out arbitrarily secure records shouldn't use Zeroed. Neither should gamers who just want to be mysterious Man With No Name types. If you're simply somebody who starts play with no identity and gradually builds up a permanent record, you're not Zeroed. You have something more akin to Zeroed as a one-use advantage (1/5 cost, 2 points, like Favor), if not just a perk.

Zeroed is for people who work for the MIBs . . . or have a backdoor into SkyNet . . . or possess supernatural abilities that completely transmute them every sunset . . . or serve Oblivius, God of Nothingness. It's an active trait. It isn't just an Unusual Background.

The only things that I'm not clear on with regards to my new proposed disadvantage: Is the price reasonable? and Should it be mutually exclusive with Zeroed or are there enough unique downsides to make the combination valid?

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

The only things that I'm not clear on with regards to my new proposed disadvantage: Is the price reasonable? and Should it be mutually exclusive with Zeroed or are there enough unique downsides to make the combination valid?

Good point, all about the active, continuing nature of Zeroed. I'd forgotten that aspect.

As to their mutual exclusivity, what drawbacks does this have that aren't already inherent in Zeroed?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

The only things that I'm not clear on with regards to my new proposed disadvantage: Is the price reasonable? and Should it be mutually exclusive with Zeroed or are there enough unique downsides to make the combination valid?

I'd go with -15. You can completely buy off the effects with an Alternate Identity advantage, which costs you 15 for an "illegal" one even your government doesn't know is false, and the combination probably should net out to zero.

I think there is no relationship with Zeroed at all. Essentially everything Basic says about Zeroed with respect to records is nonsense. It's clearest if you assume the Divinations form is primary, and the technological version does the same thing where the "divination" method is "do a records search". Your records aren't suspiciously absent, the search just fails to turn up "conclusive details" that reveal anything useful to the diviner.

It helps to realize Zeroed's original purpose is to model a Cyberpunk trope, originated I think with Roger Zelazny's My Name Is Legion, in which you can edit the universal recordkeeping system yourself. The main virtue of that isn't you can erase your old IDs, but that you can essentially create an endless string of new Alternate Identities to replace them.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

This has been bouncing around in my head for a bit. I've been making a custom android template for a Monster Hunters inhuman, and I'm trying to find a good way to represent their ambiguous social status. I think I've found a decent way to model it, but I'm looking for feedback.

Social Stigma (No Legal Status) [-10]

You are a well-preserved undead, dimensional traveler, or highly advanced android. Your status cannot be seen by a simple visual observation, but the most cursory legal investigation will reveal it. You have no birth certificate, identification, or citizenship (at least, not anymore) and cannot get any. Many things are simply off-limits to you, including almost all licenses, and if you ever end up in government custody, you will have no legal rights. This will rarely result in direct reaction penalties.

It's essentially a toned-down version of Social Stigma (Dead), with bits from other Social Stigmas mixed in.

I don't have ready access to my books but given what you're trying to represent, I'm dubious that any Social Stigma is the proper model. IIRC, Social Stigma is for obvious characteristics: you're a woman, minor, ethnic or racial minority, outwardly obvious religion, etc. and that's not the case here.

Reputation isn't necessarily obvious but it is fairly trivial to discover it and not everyone is going to care about it when it is discovered. It would be appropriate for something like being a criminal, suspected or convicted, but it doesn't seem appropriate for having no legal rights. [You may have a legally recognized existence, either as property, or as a verminous pest, but no enforceable rights.]

I would suggest that having no legal status is best represented as Social Status: -4 Outsider [20]. The status may not be immediately obvious, but once it's discovered, there isn't a lot that can be done about it. Heck, fleeing may be the best/only option.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I don't have ready access to my books but given what you're trying to represent, I'm dubious that any Social Stigma is the proper model. IIRC, Social Stigma is for obvious characteristics: you're a woman, minor, ethnic or racial minority, outwardly obvious religion, etc. and that's not the case here.

That's not true. Social Stigma (Criminal Record) exists. As do (Disowned) and (Excommunicated), and several others. And they aren't obvious.

I think the cost of -10 would be fine, but there shouldn't be any reason you can't gain a Legal Status. In fact, it would almost be mandatory the moment it was discovered.

I think this would be better modeled as Secret (No Legal Status) at -10 or -20. The moment it's uncovered, you'd lose it and get some other disadvantages.

[Anders]

I agree that a Secret would be a better way to handle this.