Concealable Vest (TL8) vs Reflex Vest (TL 9)

[Jeminai]

In HT 66, the TL 8 Concealable Vest has DR 12/5* for $1000 and 2 lbs.

In UT 172 the TL 9 Reflex Vest has DR 12/4* for $300 and 2 lbs.

If I were a TL character that wanted to buy basic torso protection I would think the old Kevlar vests would be significantly cheaper to buy than the modern reflex protection. How much would the price drop? If it dropped enough it would seem that the TL 8 vest might be a better buy.

Why does the new reflex armor not protect as well as the old one?

Thanks in advance for your input.

[GodBeastX]

I'm pretty sure TL9 stuff is TL8 stuff for the most part. Weapons are comparable and armor is comparable at least.

[Anaraxes]

Per RAW, GURPS $ handle that question the other way around. At higher tech levels, wealth increases, while the prices remain constant. At TL 8, that vest costs 5% of the basic starting wealth, while at TL 9, the same vest at the same price costs 3.33% of the starting wealth. You could look at that as a one-third decline in the price of the old item, or a 50% increase in available wealth. If nothing else, the second view makes it a lot easier to print price lists.

Whether or not the currency in use in the setting inflates is another question. The GURPSbuck to local currency ratio is likely to change, even if it's a near modern game which still has US dollars in the setting.

(Those GURPSbuck prices go back to 2004, even assuming they were all updated from 1986 originals. If so, they'd be off by 28% going by the US CPI, or 120% from 1986, thus illustrating another problem with taking prices too literally.)

[Polydamas]

High-Tech and Ultra-Tech were written at different dates by different people who made different choices; naturally the authors of HT did not feel any need to tone down real things to avoid them outshining fantastic things in other books! For example the HT armour always protects whole Hit Locations, even if in real life it has significant gaps ... Low Tech gives pieces which protect a whole hit location, even if that makes the weight a bit higher than is common in real life.

Making obsolete kit available cheaply is one of the things which a GM is welcome to do. I think that High Tech discusses how this can work, and how widely prices vary.

[McAllister]

To start the game with tech from the future, double its cost for each TL it's travelling. How inappropriate would it be to do the opposite for obsolete tech, halving its price for each TL since its introduction?

On the one hand, this seems sensible for electronics: I could probably get a computer from the 90s for very little money today! On the other, it might work backwards for some things. Swords that are high-enough quality to use are such a niche today that they're probably harder to get a hold of than they have been in the past, regardless of the fact that we could technically mass-produce them quite easily.

Probably more sound to take a less intense approach, and multiple cost by 0.75 for each TL since its introduction, up to three times; it's no easier to make a sword now than it was in the 70s. The march of technology has left it behind.

[Kalzazz]

One UT game I ran, which was TL 10, 40% price for TL 9 stuff, 30% for 8, 20% for 7, 10% for 6 and below

These were base prices, you could use quality mods from there

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by McAllister

To start the game with tech from the future, double its cost for each TL it's travelling. How inappropriate would it be to do the opposite for obsolete tech, halving its price for each TL since its introduction?

On the one hand, this seems sensible for electronics: I could probably get a computer from the 90s for very little money today! On the other, it might work backwards for some things. Swords that are high-enough quality to use are such a niche today that they're probably harder to get a hold of than they have been in the past, regardless of the fact that we could technically mass-produce them quite easily.

Probably more sound to take a less intense approach, and multiple cost by 0.75 for each TL since its introduction, up to three times; it's no easier to make a sword now than it was in the 70s. The march of technology has left it behind.

There's not really a universal rule there. For some things, being a few TL obsolete means they get churned out cheaply. For some things, they're still current goods in a slightly modernized form, so you can get a new one for about list price but an old one that works probably wouldn't be cheaper. For some things, if it's about 1-3 generations old there's a wave of cast-offs from people updating to the newer version that you can pick up cheap, but past that the price may creep up due to rarity and lack of a live market. And for some things manufacturing doesn't get cheaper and prices go up because the market is gone.

[Varyon]

For more accurate statistics (and an idea on how armor drops in price as TL goes up), you may want to look at Cutting Edge Armor Design (Pyramid #3/85). A TL8 DR 12/5* vest made of Improved Ballistic Polymer and covering the Chest (front and back) with Optimized Fabric would be $1008 and 2.016 lb. That same vest at TL9 would only cost $403.20. At TL9, a comparable DR 12/4* vest made with STF Liquid Armor (STF standing for Sheer Thickening Fluid; this is UT's Reflex) would be $483.84 and 1.6128 lb (full Torso coverage would be $645.12 and 2.1504 lb). Making that out of Magnetic Liquid Armor (a more advanced version of Reflex) would give you DR 12/6* for the same weight, and would cost $645.12 (full Torso coverage would be $860.16 and weigh 2.1504 lb).

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Jeminai

In HT 66, the TL 8 Concealable Vest has DR 12/5* for $1000 and 2 lbs.

In UT 172 the TL 9 Reflex Vest has DR 12/4* for $300 and 2 lbs.

If I were a TL character that wanted to buy basic torso protection I would think the old Kevlar vests would be significantly cheaper to buy than the modern reflex protection. .

Do you think functional plate armour got cheaper at higher tech levels?

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Do you think functional plate armour got cheaper at higher tech levels?

For the top end stuff, no. Looking at a variety of books that discuss armor development plate armor designs get much more complex by, say, late 1400s vs. early. The later armor is lighter for the same protection (flutes & shaping), fits better, and, with better design, is better able to resist points slipping into the necessary gaps. So prices are pretty steep.

However, the older plate armor is still around and will offer pretty good protection for a much lower price than the latest and greatest plate from Milan or Augsberg. "Just Used Once! All Blood Stains Removed!"