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Old 11-30-2016, 08:51 AM   #1
mhd
 
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Default [TG] I don't quite get spending CP for damage

I'm trying to incorporate more Technical Grappling into my DF-ish game, but last session couldn't quite explain the reasoning behind spending CP to set the damage limit.

So Strangulo the assassin has caught Gallus asleep. He's readying his rope garrote and is slipping the loop around the neck of G, achieving a good set of control points.
Next round he wants to do a damaging choke. With Trained ST 12, that's 1d-2 x 1.5, so better set some CP aside for that.

But how is doing damage weakening my hold, making it easier for the foe to escape? It's not like I let him go to punch him or anything like that. (I'm aware that shock penalties should do enough to offset that, but still...)
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:02 AM   #2
DouglasCole
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Default Re: [TG] I don't quite get spending CP for damage

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Originally Posted by mhd View Post
I'm trying to incorporate more Technical Grappling into my DF-ish game, but last session couldn't quite explain the reasoning behind spending CP to set the damage limit.

So Strangulo the assassin has caught Gallus asleep. He's readying his rope garrote and is slipping the loop around the neck of G, achieving a good set of control points.
Next round he wants to do a damaging choke. With Trained ST 12, that's 1d-2 x 1.5, so better set some CP aside for that.

But how is doing damage weakening my hold, making it easier for the foe to escape? It's not like I let him go to punch him or anything like that. (I'm aware that shock penalties should do enough to offset that, but still...)
This is a pretty good question, and I'll tell you up front that my answer may not satisfy you.

One of the design goals of TG was to make damage somewhat interchangeable and on the same scale. You roll to hit. You make a damage roll on the same scale that you use for weapons (the Damage Table on p. B16). That give you control, and it is quantified in the same damage points that you get from punching or stabbing someone.

So, later on, you want to take control and make it injury. You can even build up misses and hits over time until you have a huge amount of stored latent "damage."

So, can you do that damage over and over and over? That didn't seem right. I came up with the idea of spending the points. For some moves, like a trip or a throw, spending CP to enhance the effect makes sense. You're creating space or movement and the foe is no longer quite as tightly bound as they were.

For others, and choke holds are the primary example, that explanation doesn't work. You're USING the constriction to apply an effect, and that effect gets worse with applied control and restraint, not less bad.

In the end, I couldn't think of anything better, and the end result was for things like choke holds, you usually wind up taking All-Out Attack (Double) to first attack to build control, then immediately spend it for damage.

MUCH LATER, Peter and I hit on the idea of not spending control for such moves, but risking it instead. You say "I'm going to do a choke, and I'll put 5 CP at risk." You make the attack, you succeed, you roll damage, capped at 5 points, but you lose nothing.

If you fail the attack roll, your attempt to choke your foe was foiled - you did it wrong, and you lose the CP.

That way, you can do what you need to do without the attack-spend-attack-spend mechanic that was satisfying in the results (the time it takes to do what you need, and the mechanics you have to invoke to get there, give the right end state), but very unsatisfying in narrative consistency.

We couldn't think of anything better at the time (during the playtest) and I didn't want a special case for everything. So we said "spend CP to do damage, all the time."

Of course, there are a few special cases anyway (I think Throws from Locks doesn't invoke spending CP, but I'm at work and not sure).

Peter and I have come up with a few innovations and tweaks to TG since the book came out three years ago. If there were ever a Dungeon Fantasy edition or a second edition or a Pyramid article (almost certainly not for the first two; the pyramid article might have a shot) we'd overwrite some of the clunkier bits.
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Last edited by DouglasCole; 11-30-2016 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:07 AM   #3
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Default Re: [TG] I don't quite get spending CP for damage

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If there were ever a Dungeon Fantasy edition or a second edition or a Pyramid article (almost certainly not for the first two; the second has a shot) we'd overwrite some of the clunkier bits.
Do you mean " the third has a shot?"
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:11 AM   #4
DouglasCole
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Default Re: [TG] I don't quite get spending CP for damage

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Do you mean " the third has a shot?"
I did. Clarified.
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Old 11-30-2016, 10:03 AM   #5
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Default Re: [TG] I don't quite get spending CP for damage

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This is a pretty good question, and I'll tell you up front that my answer may not satisfy you.
Oh, believe me, "internal consistency so that rules are easier to digest" isn't a hard sell to people who tried grappling in almost any RPG system...
And the unified damage mechanics is probably the main reason why I decided on bringing in some TG stuff in the first place, saves me from remembering more penalties and spot rules.

In this special case it was no big deal anyway, as the foe was in such a disadvantaged position, that going all-out double attack wasn't an issue. But soon there'll be vampires ;)
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Old 12-01-2016, 06:39 PM   #6
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Default Re: [TG] I don't quite get spending CP for damage

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If there were ever a Dungeon Fantasy edition or a second edition or a Pyramid article (almost certainly not for the first two; the pyramid article might have a shot) we'd overwrite some of the clunkier bits.
I'd pay money for that.
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