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Old 12-15-2004, 09:18 AM   #31
Digren Kaellise
 
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Default Re: Enhanced Defenses vs. Combat Reflexes

For this particular unicorn character, where she does not have combat abilities, but just "moves faster than you would expect", the perfect choice is to boost Basic Speed. You can drop Move back down to where you want it, but an artificially high Basic Speed (with a realistic Move) is the embodiment of "moves faster than you would expect".

How is Enhanced Dodge better than this? Simple. With Enhanced Dodge, you aren't taking points against your disadvantage limit. Buying down Move certainly would, at least in my campaigns.
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Old 12-16-2004, 04:37 PM   #32
bardolph
 
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Default Re: Enhanced Defenses vs. Combat Reflexes

I agree with Digen.

Another consideration: what, in story terms, is the justification of the Enhanced Dodge?

If it's simply "quickness," then a Basic Speed boost is the correct way to purchase it. Use Enhanced Dodge only after you've reached your campaign limit for Basic Speed increases.

If it's some kind of supernatural aversion to harm, why not buy levels of Luck?
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Old 12-17-2004, 12:38 AM   #33
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Default Re: Enhanced Defenses vs. Combat Reflexes

I'd like to second the Luck option, myself. Unicrons are imfamous in Fantasy for being pure, unearthly good creatures of magic, and even harming one is a terrible thing, while killing one is liable to curse you for life and brand you as a truly evil being. I think luck would be a fair facet to a unicorn's powers, though I think the basic speed idea is good as well.

Though I'd watch out if I were you. I can already hear a player yelling "ride like the wind, bullseye!" at the Unicorn when they need to beat a hasty retreat... XD
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Old 12-17-2004, 02:46 AM   #34
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Default Re: Enhanced Defenses vs. Combat Reflexes

Avoiding getting hit can very well be a skill. Dodge should be one.

Any kind of combat training can put an emphasis on anticipation, evasion, and so forth, making Enhanced Dodge make perfect sense, even when you aren't any faster (Basic Speed) than normal. Some people are Really Good at not getting hit.

It's interesting that people will make up even outlandish justifications for the rules, and against improvements, instead of working forward from logical basis to logical conclusion.

The rules are essentially arbitrary in more than just the blatant sense; arguments could be made to restructure key parts that seem to have historical inertia preventing change, and so many point values and details could well be changed logically.

The official rules represent one opinion, or interpretation, and the majority of it could well be changed from either a logical standpoint, or a "fun" standpoint, or to streamline it, and so forth.
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Old 12-17-2004, 03:42 AM   #35
bardolph
 
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Default Re: Enhanced Defenses vs. Combat Reflexes

However, in a game, modeling Dodge as a skill in a way that doesn't invite rampant abuse, is difficult.
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Old 07-24-2006, 02:41 PM   #36
demonsbane
 
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Default Re: Enhanced Defenses vs. Combat Reflexes

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeUser
Avoiding getting hit can very well be a skill. Dodge should be one.
At least, unlike in G:3e, the advantage Enhanced Defenses let people to figure the Dodge value as trainable. Not being calculated as a skill (Easy/Average/Hard...) but trainable investing points in it.

But I wonder what is the reason for calculating dodge as your move score +3 (I suspect this +3 has something to do about the dropping of the 3e Passive Defense concept). I also think in theory it should be a skill, part of sword training (or any martial art) for instance.

Are there any real reason for handling dodge this way (move +3, fixed value no matter how much you do training in fighting -excepting Combat Reflexes)? Is that a reality check reason?

Or it is a purely "gamist" reason (i.e. to make the thing more playable, because it isn't fun people dodging again and again)?

Indeed, I find myself a bit surprised when I read about "Enhanced Defenses", the advantage was "definitely cinematic".

The reason for my surprise is I think, as a lot of other people, it is quite possible to learn specifically to dodge (or at least, to learn martial arts letting them you being better dodging besides parrying, not only parrying (1/2 skill +3).

Nevertheless, I'm aware high defenses are problematic for practical game reasons, but I would like to understand better the point.

Last edited by demonsbane; 07-24-2006 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 07-24-2006, 06:11 PM   #37
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Default Re: Enhanced Defenses vs. Combat Reflexes

I don't think you can get better at Dodging. More precisely you top out quickly so making it a skill that you can raise forever is unrealistic to me. Yes you can get better at Dodging but you'll top out and I think that GURPS assumes everyone is close to that "I know how to Dodge" level. Higher than that then you increase your Basic Speed or buy an Advantage.
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Old 07-24-2006, 06:29 PM   #38
roguebfl
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Default Re: Enhanced Defenses vs. Combat Reflexes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jahn
I don't think you can get better at Dodging. More precisely you top out quickly so making it a skill that you can raise forever is unrealistic to me. Yes you can get better at Dodging but you'll top out and I think that GURPS assumes everyone is close to that "I know how to Dodge" level. Higher than that then you increase your Basic Speed or buy an Advantage.
there is Also Acrobatic Dodge for Skill effecting Dodge
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Old 07-24-2006, 10:40 PM   #39
demonsbane
 
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Default Re: Enhanced Defenses vs. Combat Reflexes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jahn
I don't think you can get better at Dodging. More precisely you top out quickly so making it a skill that you can raise forever is unrealistic to me. Yes you can get better at Dodging but you'll top out and I think that GURPS assumes everyone is close to that "I know how to Dodge" level. Higher than that then you increase your Basic Speed or buy an Advantage.
True. Good arguments.

Jahn and Roguebfl answers (including this latter the acrobatic dodge option) does make sense for me.

Thanks!

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Old 07-24-2006, 11:04 PM   #40
LynGrey
 
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Default Re: Enhanced Defenses vs. Combat Reflexes

Quote:
Originally Posted by bardolph
I agree with Digen.

Another consideration: what, in story terms, is the justification of the Enhanced Dodge?

If it's simply "quickness," then a Basic Speed boost is the correct way to purchase it. Use Enhanced Dodge only after you've reached your campaign limit for Basic Speed increases.

If it's some kind of supernatural aversion to harm, why not buy levels of Luck?
You know what i find kind of funny... Enhanced Dodge +15 pts. buy up Basic Speed by 4 points +20 Points. Buy down Basic move once to stay normal moving -5 pts. Hey i ijust bought Enhanced Dodge, and i get to go first more often in combats =)
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