Enhanced Defenses vs. Combat Reflexes

[Sam Baughn]

Can anyone think of a small benefit (worth maybe a point or two) which I could add to advanced dodge, to make it a bit more worthwhile compared to increased speed?

[Pagan]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Can anyone think of a small benefit (worth maybe a point or two) which I could add to advanced dodge, to make it a bit more worthwhile compared to increased speed?

Well, I think the benefit is a conceptional one. Being very proficient at dodging attacks doesn't neccessarily give you all the benefits of increased speed. Depending on your character design, you may want more dodge and not so much speed. Also, in realistic games, speed is normally limited to +2.00, enhanced dodge lets you go beyond your basic speed for dodge. I think the advantage is balanced as is. As Kromm said, it represents another way of achieving a goal. Everything shouldn't neccessarily stack neatly to make a more powerful character. A large part of Gurps is characterization.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Can anyone think of a small benefit (worth maybe a point or two) which I could add to advanced dodge, to make it a bit more worthwhile compared to increased speed?

Well, I've got one, but it doesn't work unless you're using another house rule.

I am thinking of applying a cumulative penalty to successive dodges within a turn, as for parries, of -4. If you want Enhanced Dodge to be a worthwhile option compared to +1 Speed -1 Move, allow each level to also cancel a point of the penalty.

Alternatively, you could just make Enhanced Dodge cheaper.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Pagan

Well, I think the benefit is a conceptional one. Being very proficient at dodging attacks doesn't neccessarily give you all the benefits of increased speed. Depending on your character design, you may want more dodge and not so much speed. Also, in realistic games, speed is normally limited to +2.00, enhanced dodge lets you go beyond your basic speed for dodge.

Since Enhanced Dodge requires one of two cinematic advantages (Weapon Master or Trained by a Master), its effectively limited to 0 levels in a realistic game.

I think the advantage is balanced as is. As Kromm said, it represents another way of achieving a goal. Everything shouldn't neccessarily stack neatly to make a more powerful character. A large part of Gurps is characterization.

The balance issue with Enhanced Dodge isn't stacking, its that it is the same cost of another way in the rules to buy the same effect plus more.

[Eljay451]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

The balance issue with Enhanced Dodge isn't stacking, its that it is the same cost of another way in the rules to buy the same effect plus more.

Enhanced Defenses (Dodge) • 5 [75] (+1 Dodge/level)
Enhanced Basic Speed • 20 [100] (+0.25 BS/level; Dodge is based on BS + 3 - EncPenalty)
Combat Reflexes [15] (+1 to all active defenses)
Enhanced Time Sense [45] (entails Combat Reflexes)

Note: Combat Reflexes doesn't have levels; you can't buy 5 levels of Combat Reflexes.

I don't see how you get +5 to Dodge from Combat Reflexes.

But I do see how you get +5 to your Dodge (effectively) by Enhanced Basic Speed.

Yeah, but Basic Speed +6 and Move -6 is the same price and better. {from earlier post}

Then buy Enhanced Basic Speed • 24 (+6.00 BS) [120] and Reduced Basic Move • -6 (-6 Move) [-30].

I agree with you: it's better.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Luther

And that's exactly against "it costs what it costs", or flat costs, philosophy.

No, it isn't. If something has nonlinear effects, it's entirely compatible with "it costs what it costs" to give it a nonlinear cost progression. Defense bonuses have rather extremely nonlinear effects on combat, if you game it out. It is the role of the game to balance potentially game-wrecking traits by scaling up their cost at higher levels, even before the specific genre, world, GM, and gaming group come into the picture.

[Luther]

I see, thanks.

[SomeUser]

How much would Combat Reflexes cost, if it were built using the rest of the rules?

It includes all the Enhanced Defenses (35 points) for starters.

How much would Enhanced Dodge cost if it were built using the rest of the rules (e.g. Basic Speed with limitations - Doge only - no sequencing, move, etc. effects; or as Combat Reflexes with limitations; or --)?

[bardolph]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Can anyone think of a small benefit (worth maybe a point or two) which I could add to advanced dodge, to make it a bit more worthwhile compared to increased speed?

Increased Speed is capped at 2 for non-cinematic characters.

I see Enhanced Dodge as a "last resort" advantage for PC's who've already maxxed out all other options. If you aren't in that situation, don't buy it.

Or do. In the end, does it really matter that you aren't getting the tiny, subtle bonuses that you don't want anyway?

[BartMG]

For me, Combat Reflexes is something totally different than Enhanced Dodge.

IMHO, CR is a mindset, gained by exposure to the battlefield and actual man-to-man combat. It represents experience in dealing with the psychological reality of hostile situations. That's my answer as to why CR gives bonuses to defense, fright checks, surprise recovery, and fast-draw - you don't think, you act. You get the bennies not because you're lightning-fast, but because you don't think about fifty other things in the meantime. You don't subconciously ponder choosing fight or flight - your mind has already made itself up, so to speak. In other words, CR isn't just the "first step to better defence roll modifiers", it's a lot more. It is an enormous factor in constructing the character's psyche and life experiences (where and how did he get the advantage? what were the consequences for him and others?).

On the other hand, ED only means that your character dodges 1 point better than someone with identical stats. It's a modifier, pure and simple. Sure, there are plenty of role-playing opportunities here, such as why exactly your character dodges so well (precog? luck? training?), and does he view it as a gift, a talent, nothing special etc. But these are not nearly as important in the final makeup of your character as whether she killed people in a war, grew up as a gladiator-slave, snapped at some point and became a criminal-slaying vigilante or spent 5 years in a VR construct training node, becoming a living weapon.

That's the way I understand and implement it, for what it's worth. As for the point cost thing, I can see why ED should cost 15 points. Namely, it's cinematic. Cinematic game = higher point value characters, as they are "larger than life in a world gone MAD!" :) If you really want to increase dodge, do what a lot of people have suggested and buy a few levels of increased speed, thus gaining a character who dodges well and has a good reaction speed, two things which usually go hand-in-hand.