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Old 11-03-2017, 04:24 AM   #51
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Centrum Light, Homeline Dark.

It's still like how the U.S. committed similar atrocities during the cold war by treating non-citizens as non-humans, I don't think most Americans felt the same way.
Even extreme racists don't believe others are literally not real the way many Homeliners see out-timers.
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:19 AM   #52
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Default Re: Centrum Light, Homeline Dark.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Not seeing them as people in ways that matter (e.g. in terms of their right to life)
A right to life is only one part of what's going on here. The claim is that people of different realities are not "real people." When you go to a parallel world and see another You, you believe you're the "real" one, and that other You is an impostor, a thing, an aberration of quantum mechanics. This is different than going to a foreign country and believing the people there are lesser than you and are just animals that don't deserve human rights.

Centrum and Homeline do not parallel each other. They're don't echo each other. Aside from living on planets with identical landmasses, they are just two separate places with completely different people living in them who are nonetheless technologically comparable. The "impostor, thing, aberration of quantum mechanics" argument doesn't hold for long, whether or not the "animals that don't deserve human rights" argument does. They're clearly people who just live somewhere else.
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:43 AM   #53
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Centrum Light, Homeline Dark.

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
A right to life is only one part of what's going on here. The claim is that people of different realities are not "real people." When you go to a parallel world and see another You, you believe you're the "real" one, and that other You is an impostor, a thing, an aberration of quantum mechanics. This is different than going to a foreign country and believing the people there are lesser than you and are just animals that don't deserve human rights.
Err, no I don't. Or at least not in a way which you seem to imply - not in a contrasting way that implies that the other me is not real. Just as when I read the opinions of the other me (e.g. of me-2000), I don't say that this other me is a fake, an aberration of the arrow of time. Calling things a "quantum-mechanical aberration" accusation seem like a symptom of humanity's inability to treat distant people as real people.
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Old 11-03-2017, 08:49 AM   #54
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Default Re: Centrum Light, Homeline Dark.

The "you" is a hypothetical resident of Homeline, not Vicky Molokh. The claim is that they don't consider people of other timelines to be real people. I'm saying there has to be a difference between how they view the people that live in places that seem kind of freaky and the people who "just live somewhere else."

And there is surely varied opinion even on Homeline and Centrum about the "realness" of these other people. It's one thing to intellectually appreciate that all these people live completely independent lives deserving of equal respect and rights as your own. It's quite another to suppress the fear and greed that comes from confronting the unknown and seeing the opportunity to exploit those less powerful than yourself. Centrum and Homeline responses to these concerns are not necessarily consistent.
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Old 11-03-2017, 09:03 AM   #55
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Default Re: Centrum Light, Homeline Dark.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Not seeing them as people in ways that matter (e.g. in terms of their right to life)
That's not true of either of them. Homeline invests quite substantial efforts into disaster relief and rescue and Centrum wants to steer the various into unification and "rationalization" mostly to keep them from self-destruction. Neither just goes out and moves into inhabited worlds even though they could easily take over by force with lower tech places. Homeline's deprecation mostly consists of transferring the intellectual property rights of offworlders to their Homeline counterparts when they exist.
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Old 11-03-2017, 12:56 PM   #56
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Default Re: Centrum Light, Homeline Dark.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
What would a planned uplift look like? I imagine that Centrum would want to reduce the threats of ecological devastation, economic inequality, global climate change, mass overpopulation, etc in reduce the incentives for developing paratronics. I would also think that they would quietly encourage the development of space exploration technology among advanced worlds so that they look outwards towards the stars rather than look inwards towards parallel worlds. Other than that, I really do not know.
It would really depend on the timeline, particularly how advanced it is.



A lower-tech timeline would likely be encouraging technological development, since it would be far from threatening the world (or reaching parachronics). Likely would be uplifted via manipulating the current, feudal leadership and hierarchy.

Uplift would try to bring about industrialization without either democracy or revolution, by encouraging a more meritocratic hierarchy, and more government control. Meanwhile, Uplift would push secularism as its pushes science - and English, of course.

An example of an Uplift low-tech world would be an echo that has been successfully moved 'up quantum'.


If a world has only recently discovered The Americas & Australia, Centrum might push for a 'model colony' to develop. Such a state would be easier to develop 'properly', without the old ways of the Old World. It would have access to natural resources and immigrant labor pool.

The obvious example would be Centrum manipulating an English North American colony. Centrum knows enough of Secundus history to know that such a state can become the most powerful in the world (and a similar process happened on Terraustralis on Centrum) - best to make it a proto-Centrum, and not proto-USA.



For a developed timeline (those are the ones that Centrum is most interested in), space tech could be a good way of diverting from parachronics, and both getting new resources and an outlet for expansionism. But Centrum's own space tech knowledge is limited (there's not much on the homeworld), and has its own Last War risks - the rockets that can put satellites in space can also launch missiles.

By the time Uplift would take over from Interworld, Centrum would have a handle on the world - infiltrated enough to stop parachronics or a worldwide nuclear war. Uplift would encourage meritocracy, but also single power hegemony and hierarchy.

Technological development actually probably wouldn't be encouraged, certainly not breakthrough inventions, but rather slow & steady refinement. This would be easier to control, and tech revolution can lead to political revolution. Uplift would try to stop something like the internet from being developed.

There would still be a preference for English, but not as important - Uplift can work through enough local cut-outs to handle the language problem. But the worlds that Interworld takes over and hands to Uplift would likely already be Anglo-dominant, since that's easier for Interworld.

An example would be the Britannica worlds, 2 through 5.
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Old 11-03-2017, 01:30 PM   #57
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Default Re: Centrum Light, Homeline Dark.

I just realized, is Centrum English at all like a French-influenced Strine?
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Old 11-03-2017, 06:07 PM   #58
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Default Re: Centrum Light, Homeline Dark.

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Originally Posted by PTTG View Post
I just realized, is Centrum English at all like a French-influenced Strine?
I suspect it would be closer to that than it would be to what we speak.
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Old 11-04-2017, 10:21 AM   #59
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Default Re: Centrum Light, Homeline Dark.

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Originally Posted by PTTG View Post
I just realized, is Centrum English at all like a French-influenced Strine?
On Centrum, Terraustralis was colonized much differently, centuries earlier, initially by Terranovans (Americans), and more intensely. The colonization was even independent of the Anglo-French Empire initially, before being conquered later on.

And Centran Anglic (as it's called) was made the 'language of the realm' by the old Anglo-French Empire before The Last War - The Centrum just sped up the process. During world reclamation, it's more likely that The Centrum just enforced 'classical' Anglish - maybe akin to real life France standardizing the French language.

Also, given how the Anglo-French Empire treated Native Americans, it's likely that Australian aboriginees were treated even worse than in Homeline history, including fewer place names and loan words.



I do think that Centrum, if it can't make a world speak English, would take a Francophone-dominated world. I believe both Homeline French and English default to the same level of Anglish.

For a long time in our history, French was the language of diplomacy and the most common second language (replacing Latin, another language Centrum knows). And it still is on a number of worlds, such as Shikaku-Mon and Aeolus.

For instance, on the cyberpunk Bonaparte-4, Centrum is infiltrating the Imperial French administration.

And given how English became dominant on Secundus, including the language of Infinity and its home area (America), plus that of its biggest democracies & capitalism, Interworld at least would know that Infinity might favor English-speaking states.

Plus, Interworld would hopefully know that Infinity knows that it/Centrum is Anglophone. Interworld might set up Anglophone front organizations to attract & catch Secundus spies.


Though by the time Uplift gets involved, the language issue would be largely settled, as to what is going to be the timeline's main language.
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Old 11-04-2017, 05:38 PM   #60
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Centrum Light, Homeline Dark.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
That's not true of either of them. Homeline invests quite substantial efforts into disaster relief and rescue and Centrum wants to steer the various into unification and "rationalization" mostly to keep them from self-destruction. Neither just goes out and moves into inhabited worlds even though they could easily take over by force with lower tech places. Homeline's deprecation mostly consists of transferring the intellectual property rights of offworlders to their Homeline counterparts when they exist.
Every human society will have groups that care about the weak and disenfranchised. Those don't negate the effects of institutionalized inhumanity.

It's like the expression that there are always heroes on both sides of any war.
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