Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?

[Jim Kane]

As magic is governed by IQ, why are Wizards rolling to cast spells against their DX like a fighter in a Melee, and not against their IQ stat?

Does it not stand to reason that since magic is a thing of mental concentration and magical knowledge which determines the ability of a wizard to reliably manifest his will from his thought-forms - as it is the power of the mind that determines the successful casting of a spell, and not the physical adroitness of a character - so that 3d6 vs IQ should logically be the basic roll for successful spell-casting; with the Missile and Thrown Spells (at a target hex), requiring a subsequent 3d6 vs DX to hit their target-at-distance.

Except in cases of Summoning and Creation spells, should not then the proper sequence be: 1) roll 3d6 vs IQ to successfully cast, and then, 2) roll 3d6 vs DX to project and successfully hit a target?

Furthermore, why are wizards not powering their spells by expending IQ Fatigue; as opposed to ST Fatigue?

That concept would certainly eliminate the complaints about the high-ST "Wizard Tank" characters who develop over time.

Where am I off-base here?

[Skarg]

You're not off-base. Those are logical ideas. I've used home-brew magic systems by myself and others which do such things (mental fatigue can also be interesting/challenging/funny if you have it reduce the IQ of the caster).

(In fact, GURPS Magic does the part about rolling for success based on IQ (+ spell skill) for the conjuring and DX-based targeting for some spells.)

I think it's fairly clear that the main reasons they are not that way are simply for simplicity (fewer rolls and types of rolls, fewer rules and types of fatigue) and balance (both against fighters and against other varieties of wizard character design - ST would tend to become a wizard's "dump stat"). Particularly for ordinary characters without high attributes, it would also tend to make thrown and missile spells rather less likely to work, which might or might not be a bad thing - those spells also tend to be able to take a fighter out of a combat if/when they do hit. But it would be a relative improvement for high-IQ wizards, and tempt some to dump DX too to get max fatigue and success chances and best spells as long as they are not thrown or missile spells. ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16 wizard and only Creation and Special spells would be very powerful compared to other designs, and almost like a ST 16 DX 16 IQ 16 wizard with only special and creation spells in the current system.

(Oh, and low-IQ wizard designs would be greatly impacted.)

Another (also/more complex) similar variant is to decide that magic is all about mental work, and add magic/mental/psychic strength and dexterity traits that aren't the same as physical ST and DX (so they become wizard dump stats) but are used for spellcasting (so that you can still have different wizard designs - power versus skill versus learning).

[JLV]

I actually suggested this a month and a half ago over in the "Fantasy Trip" thread.

Not only that, but I also suggested that IQ be the source of "power" for magical spells -- in that a player receives an amount of "power" (I called it "Mana") equal to his IQ in order to cast spells. This power is used (and recharged) much like Rick's "fST" (or as described in Advanced Wizard), but instead of being based on ST (which is used for HITs, after all) is based on IQ. All of this seems logical to me, given that magic is an IQ based system in every other respect. It also removes the need to create Conan the Wizard. Using such a system would result in Wizards with high IQs (which seems perfectly natural) without having enormous STs or high DXs.

The only real issue is that Wizards will never spend any XP on anything else. To this, there are two solutions. One, raise the XP cost to earn a new attribute. Two, use the Talent/Spells system that we've been discussing here and elsewhere to make it necessary to somehow spend XP to acquire new Spells or Talents.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by JLV

I actually suggested this a month and a half ago over in the "Fantasy Trip" thread.

That's very reassuring to hear; as when tinkering with a beloved and iconic rules-set - no matter how correctly a concept works in testing over decades of play - the worst feeling in the world always comes with the horrible thought of:

"Am I the ONLY one who feels this way about this thing?".

I am glad to learn that is not the case.

[Dave Crowell]

From a worldbuilding perspective I think it makes better sense for all of magic to be based on IQ. That is how you learn magic, impose your will on the world, etc.

From a game design perspective powering spells by STR and rolling vs DEX to successfully cast them eans wizards have reasons to spend points on all three attributes with no "safe" dump stat.

For one shots and arena games warriors can probably get away with using IQ as a dump stat. Indeed that is sort of how Melee works, just assume all figures have the default base IQ.

I do find it odd in both TFT and T&T that a wizard may be built like Conan.

[Skarg]

I actually don't think Conan the Wizard is the main problem, even though it gets mentioned a lot. With apprentices and/or ST Batteries, putting a bunch of points in ST is not, I think, often a good idea, unless you really want/need to be able to cast certain spells without using apprentices or ST Batteries. I think in general most wizards with high ST would be more formidable with more DX and/or IQ. Certainly there are several Thrown spells which will take down another wizard, and having superior Thrown spell range (and/or better spells) tends to be better than having a few more ST (and it certainly is if you can hire some apprentices to cast Aid on you).

Which is not to say that I don't think it would be an improvement if there were some way for wizards to improve their available intrinsic fatigue pool for spells other that raising ST - I do.

But again, if you just simply make IQ do everything for wizards, you tank the balance heroes and other wizard designs as the best 32-point picks start to become things like ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16 Summon 7-Hex Dragon etc and ST 8 DX 10(13) IQ 14 Missile Weapons Lightning, and any wizard without IQ below about 12 starts to be considered annoyingly flubby, etc.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

As magic is governed by IQ, why are Wizards rolling to cast spells against their DX like a fighter in a Melee, and not against their IQ stat?

Does it not stand to reason that since magic is a thing of mental concentration ... - so that 3d6 vs IQ should logically be the basic roll for successful spell-casting; with the Missile and Thrown Spells (at a target hex), requiring a subsequent 3d6 vs DX to hit their target-at-distance.

Except in cases of Summoning and Creation spells, should not then the proper sequence be: 1) roll 3d6 vs IQ to successfully cast, and then, 2) roll 3d6 vs DX to project and successfully hit a target?

Furthermore, why are wizards not powering their spells by expending IQ Fatigue; as opposed to ST Fatigue?

That concept would certainly eliminate the complaints about the high-ST "Wizard Tank" characters who develop over time. ...

Hi all, Jim.
I am pretty sure that it was designed this way so that all characters had reasons to take all three attributes. Wizards need ST for the fatigue ST to cast the spells. Fighters need IQ to get cool talents (both for the base IQ and the memory points). And everyone needs DX.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi all, Jim.
I am pretty sure that it was designed this way so that all characters had reasons to take all three attributes. Wizards need ST for the fatigue ST to cast the spells. Fighters need IQ to get cool talents (both for the base IQ and the memory points). And everyone needs DX.

Warm regards, Rick.

Yes, in deed Rick. But my post - which was truncated in your repost - was stating an alternate handling of wizards et al, and with the concluding question, was actually asking for feedback as to why my stated perspective was not a logical approach; and was not seeking to understand why things were done the way they were.

The first "question" in the first paragraph was merely a device to get the reader curious enough to read the hypothesis, supporting paragraphs, and conclusion, and then, answer the REAL question - being located at the end of the post - again, being the part missing from your repost, wherein you ended-up answering the non-question-question.

Hence, that part left-off from your repost:

"Where am I off-base here?" - JK

From below:

""Default Upsetting the WIZARD applecart,... maybe?
As magic is governed by IQ, why are Wizards rolling to cast spells against their DX like a fighter in a Melee, and not against their IQ stat?

Does it not stand to reason that since magic is a thing of mental concentration and magical knowledge which determines the ability of a wizard to reliably manifest his will from his thought-forms - as it is the power of the mind that determines the successful casting of a spell, and not the physical adroitness of a character - so that 3d6 vs IQ should logically be the basic roll for successful spell-casting; with the Missile and Thrown Spells (at a target hex), requiring a subsequent 3d6 vs DX to hit their target-at-distance.

Except in cases of Summoning and Creation spells, should not then the proper sequence be: 1) roll 3d6 vs IQ to successfully cast, and then, 2) roll 3d6 vs DX to project and successfully hit a target?

Furthermore, why are wizards not powering their spells by expending IQ Fatigue; as opposed to ST Fatigue?

That concept would certainly eliminate the complaints about the high-ST "Wizard Tank" characters who develop over time.

Where am I off-base here?"

---

With that all sorted out, I would really like to learn your thoughts to THAT question.

Thanks Rick; looking forward to learning your thoughts.

JK

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Yes, in deed Rick. But my post - which was truncated in your repost - ...

Thanks Rick; looking forward to learning your thoughts.

JK

Hi Jim,
I trim away the parts of a post that I'm not discussing. It makes it easier to follow my argument, and shortens what people have to read.

I think your system would work (the game could be written to make such a system work, I am sure). It would tend to result in dump stats. ST in particular would not be bought much if wizards powered spells with fatigue IQ (fIQ) rather than fatigue ST (fST).

For that reason I would not use it in my campaign.


However, I think it would be interesting if different flavours of magic used different types of fatigue to power them. For example, let us say that divinations, clairvoyance, clairaudience, Reveal / Conceal, and other information spells were all powered by fIQ. Normal spells use fST. A spell that attacked someone spying on you might use BOTH fST and fIQ!

So one wizard (with a very high IQ) would be tempted to learn more and more information and spying spells, where as a low IQ but high ST wizard would be tempted by Summon 1 hex Spider and Fire spells.

This would make a cool dynamic, I think.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi Jim,
I trim away the parts of a post that I'm not discussing. It makes it easier to follow my argument, and shortens what people have to read.

I think your system would work (the game could be written to make such a system work, I am sure). It would tend to result in dump stats. ST in particular would not be bought much if wizards powered spells with fatigue IQ (fIQ) rather than fatigue ST (fST).

For that reason I would not use it in my campaign.


However, I think it would be interesting if different flavours of magic used different types of fatigue to power them. For example, let us say that divinations, clairvoyance, clairaudience, Reveal / Conceal, and other information spells were all powered by fIQ. Normal spells use fST. A spell that attacked someone spying on you might use BOTH fST and fIQ!

So one wizard (with a very high IQ) would be tempted to learn more and more information and spying spells, where as a low IQ but high ST wizard would be tempted by Summon 1 hex Spider and Fire spells.

This would make a cool dynamic, I think.

Warm regards, Rick.

"For example, let us say that divinations, clairvoyance, clairaudience, Reveal / Conceal, and other information spells were all powered by fIQ. Normal spells use fST. A spell that attacked someone spying on you might use BOTH fST and fIQ!"

Yes, yes, yes! THIS, in my opinion is the more accurate reflection and the more correct direction as well. I still feel that having a wizard roll vs IQ to cast, and roll vs DX to throw is correct. And adding our perspectives together, I think it is even better!

Well stated and well done, Rick!

JK