[Social Engineering] Why can't Observation be used to covertly judge approachability?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Langy

Further, you're saying that, while Observation is the skill for gathering intelligence while not breaking cover, you can't use it to gather social intelligence while not breaking cover. Why not? Where in the rules does it say that Observation suddenly doesn't work when you're trying to analyze that information with Psychology or some other social-based skill? That makes no sense.

I think, personally, I would allow a research psychologist, or an ethnographer, to use Observation in precisely this way: That is, to gather data that they would take away and analyze later with their scientific skill. But that's not what we're talking about.

* There are two different skills here, at a minimum: The skill of collecting information and the skill of being inconspicuous. What was asked originally was why you couldn't use the skill of Observation to be inconspicuous. You seem to have changed to asking about using the skill of Observation to collect data. That's not the same question.

* The text doesn't actually say in so many words that you can't combine Observation, as a data collection skill, with Acting, say, as a non-being-obvious skill. I think in fact you could do that. But what the text says is that you can do it by combining Acting as the concealment skill with a Per-based Influence skill as the data gathering skill.

* Why would you want to do that, and not use Observation? Well, in the first place, you might not have Observation; the guy whose gaydar is highly developed, or the salesman who can figure out who's ready to buy, may not be a trained observer in general, and doing that kind of narrowly focus observation is a natural part of the social skill. But in the second place, Observation is specifically aimed at collecting information to be recorded and analyzed later, quite possibly by someone else, with Intelligence Analysis, Sociology, Psychology, or the like. Per-based Intimidation, say, is aimed at collecting just enough information to pick out someone who can be bullied or coerced—it's a much more applied focus, and a much more immediately applied focus. And specifically, in this situation, you combine the two steps of collecting the evidence and figuring out its implications for target choice into a single roll, rather than having an Observation roll now and a Psychology roll later. I think there are other parts of SE that talk about that kind of setup.

* In the last analysis, just as Observation includes just enough skill at inconspicuousness so that you don't give yourself away, so Per-based Influence skills contain just enough Observation so that you can spot targets.

Bill Stoddard

[sjard]

Originally Posted by Langy

Ah. That could be a major difference. It would mean that you can't use Observation to scope out a bank while pretending to be a normal customer, though.

Not as such, but you could use Observation to scope out the bank while pretending to be a normal customer if you are pretending to read a flyer/pamphlet as the cover for your observation.

Personally I'd rule that as an Acting check for the pretending to be the customer part (probably nothing more strenuous than having the skill) and the Observation check would be to observe without being noticed that you aren't actually reading the pamphlet.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Not sure I am following correctly all the arguments in this thread but I would say..
Acting to blend in since your trying to pretend to be something.
Observation lets you look without being obvious about it and also helps you know what to look for. But the skill is aimed at a certain thing not focused on social stuff so will be less help figuring out who to approach and pump for information then it would be to note where all the exits and cameras are.

Yeah, I would imagine that it would then take another skill entirely to interpret the data being gathered. Just because you're good at observing doesn't mean you know what to do with what you've seen.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Acting to blend in since your trying to pretend to be something.
Observation lets you look without being obvious about it and also helps you know what to look for. But the skill is aimed at a certain thing not focused on social stuff so will be less help figuring out who to approach and pump for information then it would be to note where all the exits and cameras are.

I think that's pretty much it, if you are planning to take the results of observation away and have them interpreted by someone with appropriate skills to interpret social relationships (see, for example, the Sociometry technique). But if you're going to interpret on the spot, you replace both Observation and the interpretative skill with some more focused skill, just as, if you're out in the wilderness, you'd replace Observation and Biology (Botany) with Survival to find edible plants.

Bill Stoddard

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by sjard

Yeah, I would imagine that it would then take another skill entirely to interpret the data being gathered. Just because you're good at observing doesn't mean you know what to do with what you've seen.

Exactly :)
I see Bill up thread posted another example.
Many trained observers take back the info to headquarters for analysis, be it intelligence services, police or military. After awhile the Observer is going to pick up on some of what it means from shop talk but he may not have formal training in it or be as good at the guys back at the office. Also may not have the computers to dissect a lot.
But he is a field op and getting the info without arousing suspicion is his job and what the Observation skill is most suited for.
To me the telling points are ...
its based off PER or Shadowing and at a healthy default and it is NOT based off IQ or DEX or even skills like Stealth.
All the examples in the write up are covert military or spy type stuff rather then something innocuous.
And finally the designed to be used at a distance line.

referring back to the subject line for the question.
I dont see how this skill would be used to judge who is approachable or not.
I do see how you could use it to gather that information and pass it along to someone who has the skills to make that call without being obvious about it.
That could be reporting in your covert surveillance equipment, reporting details later (boy would I give you a penalty though) or using those other skills (like psychology or even Diplomacy, savoir faire, etc) if you had them to make the judgement yourself.
But I dont see how this skill should be used to make the judgement, just to be less obvious about scoping the crowd out.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Refplace

But I dont see how this skill should be used to make the judgement, just to be less obvious about scoping the crowd out.

The question had nothing at all to do with using Observation to make the judgement. It had everything to do with being less obvious about scoping the crowd out.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Langy

The question had nothing at all to do with using Observation to make the judgement. It had everything to do with being less obvious about scoping the crowd out.

Maybe it was edited or deleted then. But the subject of the thread and the only part the Op wrote in the first note I see in the thread was "Why can't Observation be used to covertly judge approachability?"

[dcarson]

Not all Observation is covert also. Guards observing a crowd for size, social mix, etc. Military observers at the Slobovian military exercises so that they governments that sent them know that yes they are good enough that you don't want to start a war and no they aren't using this as a cover to start a war themselves.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Maybe it was edited or deleted then. But the subject of the thread and the only part the Op wrote in the first note I see in the thread was "Why can't Observation be used to covertly judge approachability?"

The question in the thread is why you can't make a Per-based roll against a relevant skill and an Observation roll to make that covert, rather than a Per-based roll against a relevant skill and an Acting (or Streetwise, or Savoir-Faire) roll to make it covert. No matter which skill you choose to remain covert, you still need to roll against a relevant skill to understand the information.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Langy

The question in the thread is why you can't make a Per-based roll against a relevant skill and an Observation roll to make that covert, rather than a Per-based roll against a relevant skill and an Acting (or Streetwise, or Savoir-Faire) roll to make it covert. No matter which skill you choose to remain covert, you still need to roll against a relevant skill to understand the information.

And the answer given is because Observation doesn't tell you how to be convert just how to do it without blowing how you being Covert.

Walking in the bank and pretending to be a customer, and gathering intel so that the Jackson 11 can go back to their hotel to plan the heist.

Has two rolls, one Observation this covers if you get the intel you need. And an Acting Roll. the Acting roll covers both knowing how a customer will behave AND the covering of observation because it how to look like your a customer despite that you are casing the joint.

But they will know you were there, but if you were stressful they will pay no heed to the fact you were there.

Or you can use Stealth and Observation to try not to be spotted at all.

Or you can use Acting to pretend to be a customer, and Per-based say streetwise to see who you should follow out to pick their pockets.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

And the answer given is because Observation doesn't tell you how to be convert just how to do it without blowing how you being Covert.

Walking in the bank and pretending to be a customer, and gathering intel so that the Jackson 11 can go back to their hotel to plan the heist.

Has two rolls, one Observation this covers if you get the intel you need. And an Acting Roll. the Acting roll covers both knowing how a customer will behave AND the covering of observation because it how to look like your a customer despite that you are casing the joint.

You don't need an Acting roll to behave like a customer. Behaving like a customer is something everyone knows how to do. In particular, the guy could actually go in as a customer and scope out the joint; there'd be no acting involved, because he's actually a customer. Observation would simply allow him to do that stuff without being noticed.

Now, if the man wasn't actually a customer and came in in order to rob the place or whatever, then I might require an Acting roll. There's a bit of a difference.

For another example, a man might be sitting at a cafe and want to observe the crowd (possibly a particularly attractive waitress). He doesn't need to roll Acting, he needs to roll Observation, to watch without being noticed. That's how the skill reads in the Basic Set; Kromm and others seem to be trying to retcon one of the primary attributes of the skill out of it, even though it takes pride of place and is the first, most important part of the skill description.