What does a computer really do for you?

[jason taylor]

It has the potential of reversing the home/work separation of life by making it possible to do much of the work at home.

It has the potential for making hospitality industry different. Networking and take-out orders and things of the kind have possibilities that wait for some establishment to develop them with imagination.

It has already given access to weird and wonderful products of all kinds by making the whole world a bazaar. Actually having friends to talk to who don't think I live in a different world is a great gift. As is not having to dumb down my communication for the unspecialized.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Bengt

I certainly wouldn't assume that the phrase "run a program" includes those other steps. Most computer users in corporate environments aren't even able to install programs since they lack administrator rights, and they surely "run programs". The same is true for anyone using a library computer to do research.

That is right. But still in a library, you can see a huge difference between someone who knows how to use a computer and someone who doesn't. When making a serious research about ghosts, for instance, a lot of people type something likes: "Do ghosts really exist?" while someone who has the Computer Operation skill knows that searching engine work with keywords and will type: "ghost+reality+myth". Just try it on Google (or any other different searching engine) and you will notice that the former dont lead you to the same web pages than the latter.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Bengt

Computer Operation lets you "call up data, run programs, play games, etc". That might have been a skill 30 years ago, but with our current computers that feels like a skill to tie your shoelaces.

Let me tell you about another skill (lowercase-s as of 4e) that used to be obscure and is becoming more and more ubiquitous, and possessing it causes less and less surprise: English literacy. First it was something only the English clergy and nobles could. Then most Englishmen. Then also many people in the colonies. Then many people outside the colonies but in nerdy fields (because much of good science and engineering was published in English). And nowadays it's something that is becoming even more and more ubiquitous than that, something that's becoming as natural as reading in one's native language.

And yet it's a skill that people pay points for.

Just because everyone's doing it doesn't mean it's not a 'thing'.

[ericthered]

The biggest reason I wouldn't give most modern folks computer operation is that the gap between what they can do and what a moderately skilled professional can do is huge. I'd call it larger than a +2 to skill, more like the difference between default and a few points of skill.

I think if you can't fully handle basic computer functions, you aren't fully TL8. You're TL7, at least in terms of digital technology, and suffer the standard (horrible) tech penalty for trying to use technology a higher level than your own. I could see this being limited to one or two points if it only applies to computers.

This has a comparison to Vicky's "English literacy" example. While some people have to pay points for it, some folks take it as part of their free language points. And so with computer literacy, in many settings that use it is part of your free Tech level provided by the campaign, but its still accounted for and can be added or taken away.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by ericthered

This has a comparison to Vicky's "English literacy" example. While some people have to pay points for it, some folks take it as part of their free language points. And so with computer literacy, in many settings that use it is part of your free Tech level provided by the campaign, but its still accounted for and can be added or taken away.

Mostly in exchange for giving up one's free language points in one's native language, as happens to most descendants of melting pots (e.g. Jews, Poles, Germans and other people who have been living in North America for generations). But that's the important bit: those people trade six points of one thing for six of another. This should be kept in mind alongside of the cost of TL [±5]. A person taking Low TL (TL7) is already suffering plenty of problems, including a whopping -5 to use Computer Operation against TL8 computers (which is 'lethal' on a default).

Some cultures just have some skills as more ubiquitous than others. People of a tropical fishing village will overwhelmingly have points in Swimming and Fishing, people in North American suburbs will have at least a default or some points in Driving, Duncanites will all have Spacer and Vacc Suit but not swimming and so on. And those who don't have what's considered an essential skill in a given culture will also have Social Stigma (Uneducated).

[Bengt]

Originally Posted by Gollum

That is right. But still in a library, you can see a huge difference between someone who knows how to use a computer and someone who doesn't. When making a serious research about ghosts, for instance, a lot of people type something likes: "Do ghosts really exist?" while someone who has the Computer Operation skill knows that searching engine work with keywords and will type: "ghost+reality+myth". Just try it on Google (or any other different searching engine) and you will notice that the former dont lead you to the same web pages than the latter.

So that takes hundreds of hours to pick up? Like you know a single GURPS character point. Not every little nugget of knowledge qualifies as a GURPS skill.

To compare with Vicky's English literacy, in Sweden we have English in school from fourth to twelfth grade. That's a lot of hours.

[AlexanderHowl]

Of course, computers make you more vulnerable to identity theft and certain types of sabotage and warfare. Imagine a cyberwar scenario where enemy hackers sabotage the computer systems of US hospitals by randomly mixing the information on blood types and RhD types for every patient. With an hour, patients will start dying as they receive the wrong blood type or the wrong RhD type (AB type patients will have the least fatalities while O type patients will have the most fatalities).

Before computers, that type of sabotage would have taken weeks per hospital and would have likely only killed a handful of patients before it was discovered. With computers, one enemy hacker can potentially have the changes occur weeks or months after infiltration, meaning that one enemy hacker could sabotage hundreds of systems before triggering the attack. With a group of 100 enemy hackers, every hospital in the USA could be sabotaged within a month, and no one would know until the attack is triggered.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Some cultures just have some skills as more ubiquitous than others. People of a tropical fishing village will overwhelmingly have points in Swimming and Fishing, people in North American suburbs will have at least a default or some points in Driving, Duncanites will all have Spacer and Vacc Suit but not swimming and so on. And those who don't have what's considered an essential skill in a given culture will also have Social Stigma (Uneducated).

I suppose I'm just looking for a way to distinguish between computer use for my father (who knows enough to search the web, uninstall most programs, write reports, avoid scams, and reassemble a desktop after moving it), my Grandfather-in-law (who can't use any basic function on a program that he hasn't been walked through using on a specific machine multiple times), and myself (comfortable with command line, can set up a LAN, run virtual machines, identify and remove viruses, and hold a job as a computer expert).

The trick with giving everyone in the society a single point in it is you then have to pile on hefty penalties to keep my father from setting up LANs and give professionals hefty skills to compensate.

How would you handle building the three skill levels presented?

[AlexanderHowl]

I would suggest that your grandfather-in-law possess TL7 skills and Computer Operation/TL7 at default (meaning that he suffers an additional -5 penalty when attempting a Computer Operation/TL8 task), your father possesses TL8 skills and Computer Operation/TL8 at default, and you possess TL8 skills and Computer Operation/TL8 at IQ+2 (and possible Computer Programming/TL8 at IQ+2, depending on your expertise).

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Bengt

So that takes hundreds of hours to pick up? Like you know a single GURPS character point. Not every little nugget of knowledge qualifies as a GURPS skill.

To compare with Vicky's English literacy, in Sweden we have English in school from fourth to twelfth grade. That's a lot of hours.

Only that? No, of course. Exactly as a driving license doesn't require 200 hours of training with a teacher. No matter the country. Ditto for swimming. Or skiing. Or almost any other skill, actually. Who really needs 200 hours with a teacher to start something?

A little trainings may give us the feeling that we are good, but it is wrong. There is a sentence for that: "Knows enough to be dangerous." In GURPS, a little training only gives the default level. Which is good enough as long as there is no problem. That is, in game terms, as long as the player doesn't have to roll: turning on the computer, using a program the character perfectly knows, driving into town ... Brief, any daily task in a non adventuring job.

But as soon as a problem appears, things become very different. "I always get the same webpages, which are not really interesting for my research! - Do you? Did you try other keywords? Did you try an advanced research? Do you know that Google works with an algorythm which learns to know you and tends to show you the pages you are supposed to like the most? Did you refresh the history (Ctrl+Shift+Suppr)? Did you try another searching engine which doesn't work with the same algorithm - or, best, which doesn't try to know you, like Qwant, for instance?

There is a huge difference between someone who knows a few things and someone who begins to be really good. The latter is what corresponds to 1 CP. 200 hours of training with a teacher, 400 hours of self teaching (with books or websites) or 800 hours of experience in a daily ordinary work. Because in GURPS, there is a gap here: for Computer Operation, an average guy jumps from a skill level of 6 to a skill level of 10!

I'm good at searching things on the web. But my brother is far much better than me. When I don't find something, he does. Why? Just because he is a computer scientist and a librarian. So, in GURPS terms, he has got Computer Operation and Research at level 12 or better. I don't. I'm just an amateur in both. 10, at best.