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Old 06-04-2011, 09:34 PM   #1
niherlas
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Default Wandering Monster, Wizard, and Trojan Horse = Epic Argument. Help?

We've had an odd combination of cards which caused an argument of Magic: The Gathering proportions:

Player A is lvl 2. Player A kicks down the door to find a Lame Goblin (lvl 1)

Player B plays Wandering Monster, "32,870 Orcs" (lvl 10). The Orcs join the combat with the Goblin for a combined 11.

Player A is a Wizard. Player A discards their had to Charm the Orcs, which removes the Orcs from the combat but allows Player A to draw their treasure.

Before Orc-treasure can be drawn or victory is declared over the Goblin, Player C plays Trojan Horse, with a lvl 16 monster.

This is where it gets dicey - we have two interpretations of what happens next, and neither side will compromise

One interpretation is that the lvl 16 monster in the Trojan Horse joins in combat with the lvl 1 Lame Goblin, effectively replacing the Orcs. This is based on the Multiple Monsters portion of the rules, and interpretation that the Treasure Cards are an immediate result of charming the Orcs - even before the Orc+Goblin combat is complete.

The other is that the Trojan Horse combat with the lvl 16 monster is a separate combat, distinct from the remaining combat with the Goblin. Player A would win against the Goblin (gaining a level and drawing a treasure) and then, instead of drawing the treasure for the Orcs, fight against the lvl 16 monster. This is based on the reading that the Trojan Horse effect is triggered by the drawing of treasure cards (from the charmed Orcs), and that you don't draw treasure cards until combat is complete (in this case, the original Orc+Goblin) combat.

I'd really like some help with this one. The argument was epic (in a bad way), and Munchkin has been a favorite game in the house until this happened.
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Old 06-04-2011, 09:51 PM   #2
Mister Ed
 
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Default Re: Wandering Monster, Wizard, and Trojan Horse = Epic Argument. Help?

Well, I can't speak for the specifics of some of those cards because I don't have them right here, but I CAN tell you that you DON'T draw the treasure for the charmed monster immediately. You get it at the end of the combat (unless I've been playing it wrong all this time) IF you are the victor. My understanding is that, if you charm a monster and are STILL unable to defeat any remaining monster(s), you get no treasure from the charmed monster at all.
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Old 06-04-2011, 10:04 PM   #3
niherlas
 
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Default Re: Wandering Monster, Wizard, and Trojan Horse = Epic Argument. Help?

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Originally Posted by Mister Ed View Post
Well, I can't speak for the specifics of some of those cards because I don't have them right here, but I CAN tell you that you DON'T draw the treasure for the charmed monster immediately.
Yeah, I just had that thought (still mulling this whole thing over). So if that's the case, then it would be:

Orc is Charmed by Player A. Treasure from the Charmed Orcs cannot be drawn until the combat (currently just the Goblin) is resolved - so Trojan Horse can't be played at all (or has no effect yet). If Player A defeats the Goblin then Player A goes up a level and draw 4 treasures (Orc treasure + Goblin treasure). The Trojan Horse would have to played at this time, and would substitute the lvl 16 monster for the full 4 treasures. New Combat.

Can I get a confirmation on this interpretation?
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:35 PM   #4
StaticHamster
 
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Default Re: Wandering Monster, Wizard, and Trojan Horse = Epic Argument. Help?

The Orc is charmed and then the Goblin is thought to be defeated, the player is about to go up a level and draw treasure, BEFORE THIS HAPPENS the Trojan Horse is played.

The Player does not gain any levels or treasure and must instead face the monster that was played with the Trojan Horse. Upon defeating that monster I *THINK* they gain two levels (one for defeating the Goblin and whatever for the monster played with Trojan Horse) and just the treasure for the monster played with the Trojan Horse.

If instead the Trojan Horse is played without a monster the player receives a single level from defeating the Goblin and no treasure at all.
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:49 PM   #5
MunchkinMan
 
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Default Re: Wandering Monster, Wizard, and Trojan Horse = Epic Argument. Help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Ed View Post
Well, I can't speak for the specifics of some of those cards because I don't have them right here, but I CAN tell you that you DON'T draw the treasure for the charmed monster immediately. You get it at the end of the combat (unless I've been playing it wrong all this time) IF you are the victor. My understanding is that, if you charm a monster and are STILL unable to defeat any remaining monster(s), you get no treasure from the charmed monster at all.
Since it is specifically spelled out in the rules that you never collect rewards (i.e., gain Levels, draw Treasure) until after all the Monsters are defeated*, you can't possibly have been playing it wrong.


* This is on page 1, in the box that explains that are certain rules that require an explicit statement saying that is specifically breaks one of these rules to actually break the rule. This particular case is covered by, "3. You cannot collect rewards for defeating a monster (e.g., Treasure, levels) in the middle of a combat. You must finish the fight before gaining any rewards."
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Last edited by MunchkinMan; 06-04-2011 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:19 AM   #6
niherlas
 
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Default Re: Wandering Monster, Wizard, and Trojan Horse = Epic Argument. Help?

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Originally Posted by MunchkinMan View Post
Since it is specifically spelled out in the rules that you never collect rewards (i.e., gain Levels, draw Treasure) until after all the Monsters are defeated, you can't possibly have been playing it wrong.
Yep, that's it. Found the specific spot in the rules (first page, no less). So the original Goblin + Wandering Orc combat had to complete before the treasures were drawn, even tho the Orcs were Charmed.

Combat completes. Level, draw treasures...

Then the Trojan Horse could be played.

Got it.
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Old 06-05-2011, 11:16 AM   #7
StormyWaters
 
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Default Re: Wandering Monster, Wizard, and Trojan Horse = Epic Argument. Help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by niherlas View Post
Yep, that's it. Found the specific spot in the rules (first page, no less). So the original Goblin + Wandering Orc combat had to complete before the treasures were drawn, even tho the Orcs were Charmed.

Combat completes. Level, draw treasures...

Then the Trojan Horse could be played.

Got it.
Not quite right. The Trojan Horse extends combat, meaning you have to kill that monster also before you can get levels or treasure.
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:11 PM   #8
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Default Re: Wandering Monster, Wizard, and Trojan Horse = Epic Argument. Help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by niherlas View Post
Combat completes. Level, draw treasures...
I didn't say that (and neither did MisterEd in his post, so I only confirmed his statement about drawing Treasure), and I confirmed with a forum search that I've never said that. Andrew just confirmed right in this thread that the official stance, which I explain in that thread, hasn't changed on this issue.
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:57 PM   #9
Mister Ed
 
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Default Re: Wandering Monster, Wizard, and Trojan Horse = Epic Argument. Help?

Keep in mind, the only PRINTED copy of the rules I have is Version 1.04. It most decidedly does NOT have any such box on page 1. (Yes, I do have the other rules downloaded for reference, and I try to keep up, but I'm still haven't developed the level of confidence necessary to keep me from hedging when answering questions on here. :-) )

Quote:
Originally Posted by MunchkinMan View Post
Since it is specifically spelled out in the rules that you never collect rewards (i.e., gain Levels, draw Treasure) until after all the Monsters are defeated*, you can't possibly have been playing it wrong.


* This is on page 1, in the box that explains that are certain rules that require an explicit statement saying that is specifically breaks one of these rules to actually break the rule. This particular case is covered by, "3. You cannot collect rewards for defeating a monster (e.g., Treasure, levels) in the middle of a combat. You must finish the fight before gaining any rewards."
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Old 06-05-2011, 07:51 PM   #10
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Wandering Monster, Wizard, and Trojan Horse = Epic Argument. Help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Ed View Post
Keep in mind, the only PRINTED copy of the rules I have is Version 1.04. It most decidedly does NOT have any such box on page 1.
Then you probably should avoid answering rule questions until you print out the most current rules.

I don't say that to be harsh, and I apologize if that's how it comes off, but one of the reasons we updated the rules and hundreds of cards across the entire Munchkin line was to clear up some of the areas that had been misinterpreted before. Quoting those very same misinterpretable rules perpetuates the problem.
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