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Old 07-10-2020, 09:44 AM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default cumulative effects for Autohypnosis: Increase Will?

B179 allows the option to roll at -2 to get a +2 bonus for an hour if you roll successfully. This would require at least skill 5 (roll against effective skill 3) to attempt. I'm unsure if that would mean a 15 seconds trance (20-5) or 17 seconds (17-3) since I'm unsure if you subtract base skill or effective skill. I figure 17 seconds (to make it harder) especially if allowing this option I'm thinking of...

What if you could just keep doing this to build up Will bonuses to high levels? It's not infinite since whatever you build only lasts an hour, but they could accrue to crazy-high levels if you had skill 19 (well, 21 taking into account the -2 penalty) since then it only takes 1 second per attempt and you're nearly always going to succeed.

If this could be cumulative then another fact is that since Autohypnosis is Will-based, succeeding could make future attempts easier (fewer seconds to attempt, more likely to pass) by boosting the Autohypnosis skill itself?

To balance that out, I was thinking maybe there ought to be some kind of penalty at least for critical failures, like at least -1 to will for 1 hour?

If you want to be super-literal then "cannot talk or more" could preclude even breathing (hold your breath for 17 seconds?) which might provide some kind of natural limitation to the ability to do this...

B351 (Holding Your Breath) could be applied here at the "No Exertion" rate (meditating is even given as example) where you have HTx10 seconds worth of air before you lose FP per B436 (Suffocation).

One thing that doesn't seem to be covered in the HYB rules is how long it takes to recover your "seconds" reserve that precedes FP loss.

I was initially thinking you might recover HTx5 "seconds per second" based on a couple things:
1) holding time is halved if you don't take a 1-second concentrate maneuver prior to holding breath for these 1-19 second hypnosis periods.

2) holding time is increased 50% if you hyperventilate, which presumably is a 2nd concentrate maneuver in addition to the usual one? doesn't actually list time.
I think maybe you could actually stat this like Breathing Points (BP) Your max capacity would in theory be HTx15 points (per No Exertion w/ 50% increase for hyperventilation) and "being alive" consumes 1 point per second (sitting quietly, probably also lying down, uses no extra for posture, restful. Though personally I think lying is slightly more restful than sitting)

It should actually maybe be even higher than HTx15 since you can get another 50% boost in time using Breath Control skill, and a 100% boost in time if hyperventilation was done in pure oxygen. I'm thinking to treat these as separate pools you can't actually fill using normal unaugmented breathing though.

Somehow the breathholding rules (seconds, maybe "Breath Points" or BP) could also probably be combined with the AP rules Cole used for Last Gasp. The wording there already implies breathing (Breath Control also enhances AP recovery maneuvers) even though I can't recall breath-holding addressed.

I would assume AP rules assume not holding breath so someone doing that maybe should just consume extra AP per second. Initially I thought 1 AP per second for simplicity but that's probably too harsh...

HTx10 seconds is a lot more AP than most people have, so maybe it should be -0.1 AP per second consumed by being alive which is normally cancelled out by +0.1 AP per second by the assumed "breathing normally" state? So if you want gradual loss in AP by holding breath during combat (or maybe via meditating in a way which requires 'no movement', including breathing?) you could track 0.1 intervals of AP to basically be like "breathing points" ?

That actually works out pretty well since you can only last HT seconds doing Heavy Exertion (climbing/combat/running) and AP is equal to HT. I would hazard a guess Cole probably got AP estimates based on the HYB rules since it works out like that.

Hyperventilation (normal air or pure oxygen) also I don't think got addressed. That's probably like an Energy Reserve which depreciates or has bad effects if you don't use it, because I don't think the body can stay hyperoxygenated for long?

Recovering +0.5 AP/second wouldn't be "breathing normally" but rather GASPING probably reflected by taking an Evaluate (HT roll 50/50 on HT 10 to get an AP back) and since you can take a Concentrate maneuver dedicated to breathing, maybe that should be slightly better than Evaluate (HT+1?) but inferior to Do Nothing since Concentrate still allows a step.

I could see a Committed Concentrate (-2 defend) doing HT+2, a Committed Do Nothing for HT+4, "Do Nothing as if Stunned" (-4 defend) for HT+5 and All-Out Do Nothing for +6? Or is that going too high? I'm liking the idea of broadening options for Recovery Maneuvers by trading defences.
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Old 07-10-2020, 11:15 AM   #2
johndallman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: cumulative effects for Autohypnosis: Increase Will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
What if you could just keep doing this to build up Will bonuses to high levels?
I certainly would not allow that.
Quote:
If this could be cumulative then another fact is that since Autohypnosis is Will-based, succeeding could make future attempts easier (fewer seconds to attempt, more likely to pass) by boosting the Autohypnosis skill itself?
Autohypnosis lists the applications of the Will bonus, and they're all about resisting things with Will, with a conspicuous lack of a bonus to Will-based skills.
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Old 07-10-2020, 01:43 PM   #3
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: cumulative effects for Autohypnosis: Increase Will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
I certainly would not allow that.
Balance-wise, what about if using the suggested MA54 penalties? Requires 32 turns to be used without penalty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Autohypnosis lists the applications of the Will bonus, and they're all about resisting things with Will, with a conspicuous lack of a bonus to Will-based skills.
"you get plus +2 to Will for one hour"

I figured the "this applies to" was just meant to be examples of will rolls rather than "nothing but these four things we mention"

Like for example, fear checks are not mentioned, so you think it wouldn't apply to those?
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Old 07-10-2020, 01:49 PM   #4
johndallman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: cumulative effects for Autohypnosis: Increase Will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Balance-wise, what about if using the suggested MA54 penalties? Requires 32 turns to be used without penalty.
Still no. Allowing it to stack at all is the problem.
Quote:
"you get plus +2 to Will for one hour"

I figured the "this applies to" was just meant to be examples of will rolls rather than "nothing but these four things we mention"

Like for example, fear checks are not mentioned, so you think it wouldn't apply to those?
I might allow it for Fright Checks, but using a skill to increase itself is a loud clanging bell for double-dipping.
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Old 07-10-2020, 02:24 PM   #5
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: cumulative effects for Autohypnosis: Increase Will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
using a skill to increase itself is a loud clanging bell for double-dipping.
you mean like Affliction: Modular Abilities being used to give higher levels of Affliction: Modular Abilities? :)

As long as autohypnosis is hard enough, there would be natural limitations against unskilled people doing it... and as for extremely skilled people doing it: well if everyone's doing it, then it just makes adequate prep super-important.
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Old 07-10-2020, 04:07 PM   #6
Balor Patch
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Default Re: cumulative effects for Autohypnosis: Increase Will?

I'm pretty sure the +2 to Will is intended to be non-cumulative. Likewise the "+2 to skill to perform a specific, lengthy mental task" in the preceding paragraph.
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Old 07-10-2020, 07:58 PM   #7
Prince Charon
 
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Default Re: cumulative effects for Autohypnosis: Increase Will?

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Originally Posted by Balor Patch View Post
I'm pretty sure the +2 to Will is intended to be non-cumulative. Likewise the "+2 to skill to perform a specific, lengthy mental task" in the preceding paragraph.
Probably, yeah. I would allow it to be a way to gradually train up your Will with the Improvement Through Study rules, though.
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