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Old 07-10-2020, 06:11 AM   #11
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: Magic Attribute

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Well, MP exists to make the trait equivalent with Magery from RPM. As for the utility for non-mage users, it is the pool from which ceremonial magic draws from and it is the pool that is used to maintain benevolent spells. It does allow for more high powered magic, but I believe that it could be customized to fit any supernatural power (change Magic to Chi for Chi powers, Magic to Psyche for Psionic powers, Magic to Superiority for Supers powers, etc.).
In that case, base cost should be [26] , not [20]/lvl.
Not counting the free [60] you get for 20 extra MP by default.
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Old 07-10-2020, 06:58 AM   #12
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Default Re: Magic Attribute

I'd count the value as:
2 points for magical resistance
3 points for magical defenses
9 points for the free ER
8 points for governing spells and similar skills
2 points for magical sense

Total: 24/level

I would drop the free ER to 1/level and set the Threshold Limit to 3xMagic. Technically, the value then becomes 18/level, but sticking everything a magic-user needs in one basket, combined with the implicit rules exemption perks (no cap on aid to ceremonial and such casting, can take over maintenance for another's helpful spell, and can, in theory, use either Threshold or normal magic if points are applied appropriately) seems worth a surcharge.
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Old 07-10-2020, 07:06 AM   #13
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: Magic Attribute

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Originally Posted by Gumby Bush View Post
I'd count the value as:
2 points for magical resistance
3 points for magical defenses
9 points for the free ER
8 points for governing spells and similar skills
2 points for magical sense

Total: 24/level
.
15 points for governing spells and similar skills, it is equal to a large talent covering many skills normally based on several attributes.

In Power Up 9, Kromm suggest a base cost of [20] for a 5th attribute replacing magery with less bonuses and extras than this version
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Old 07-10-2020, 07:17 AM   #14
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Default Re: Magic Attribute

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
15 points for governing spells and similar skills, it is equal to a large talent covering many skills normally based on several attributes.

In Power Up 9, Kromm suggest a base cost of [20] for a 5th attribute replacing magery with less bonuses and extras than this version
Ah, sure enough.

Maybe it should be split into Magic (Passive) and Magic (Active)?

15 points for the spells and similar (which is, per Kromm, kinda low with almost 1,000 spells) raises my calculation to at least 25/level after reducing the ER.

Further, perhaps we should add: Magical detection gets a modifier against beings with altered Magic equal to (Magic-10), so +1 against someone with Magic 11 -1 against someone with Magic 9. That somewhat offsets the implicit Rules Exemption perks.
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Old 07-10-2020, 08:20 AM   #15
Kromm
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Default Re: Magic Attribute

GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes does discuss the subject. It doesn't do exactly what "The Fifth Attribute" does, though. Rather, it offers a shotgun blast of possibilities:

If you make spells depend on an attribute I'll call "Power" rather than on IQ, then you've effectively split IQ in two. The suggested price range for Power and IQ then becomes 11-20 points. Power should never cost less than the 10 points/level of Magery or Power Investiture, while IQ could continue to cost 20 points/level.

No level of Power automatically grants spellcasting ability! Each realm of magic (mana-based, sanctity-based, etc.) requires an Unusual Background to "switch it on." That costs whatever the GM believes "I can work magic!" is worth – at least 5 points, possibly a lot more (10, 25, 50 . . .).

Power being an attribute doesn't imply that just anyone can reduce it. The GM is free to permit only those who've switched on spellcasting with an Unusual Background to do that.

For gamers who dislike such fiat solutions, the alternative is to make low Power bad. The simplest way to do so is to have resistance to spells use the worst of Power and the usual attribute (usually Will or HT) . . . and to make this problem obvious to spellcasters!

Also, there can be uses of Power other than spellcasting. If these matter to non-casters, then letting everyone lower Power becomes fairer.

One such use is "everybody gets a Power roll to sense curses and magic." That makes low Power a problem both on an economic level (you miss valuable magical loot) and on the level of personal safety (you don't sense curses and magical traps). This roll could be penalized for non-casters without suitable UBs, but letting everybody at least try makes lowering Power a risk.

Another such use is to have all supernatural powers – and even weirder non-power abilities, like Danger Sense – use the Power score for all relevant attribute rolls. You can have all the DX, IQ, Per, etc. you want, but all of your supernatural senses, attacks, and so on rely on Power. Lower it and you can never be a capable chi-user, priest, psi, etc.

Yet another is that skills covering esoteric subjects move from their current controlling attributes to Power. This means spells, obviously . . . but also all cinematic martial-arts skills, and perhaps even stuff like Autohypnosis, Dreaming, Enthrallment skills, Esoteric Medicine, Exorcism, Meditation, Musical Influence, Ritual Magic, and Thaumatology.

As well, Power becomes the base for whatever points are used to energize spells and supernatural abilities – call them Energy Points. EP start equal to Power, just as FP start equal to HT. And no, you can't spend FP on spells and abilities!

Lowering EP below starting level is best handled by simply stating you can't reduce EP by more than 30%. The GM can say "You can't lower EP at all!", but that isn't necessary. Introducing attacks and spells that damage or drain EP, and that have very bad effects at negative EP (like HP loss, HP and FP loss, or even Will loss), can make low EP a serious problem.

And of course the GM is free to say that EP power all the abilities and skills that Power controls: advantages (like Healing), cinematic martial-arts skills, Enthrallment skills, spells, etc. The GM might even move "cinematic" uses of FP to EP, meaning things like extra effort in combat and TV Action Violence (p. B417).

With enough hanging off Power, the GM can let it work like any other attribute, because those who lower it won't be able to exploit unusual skills and abilities, and will become vulnerable to the supernatural. This is only recommended in campaigns with lots of such capabilities and dangers . . . but there, lowering Power or Energy Points is really no more or less bad than lowering, say, IQ is for a dedicated warrior.
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Old 07-10-2020, 08:54 AM   #16
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Default Re: Magic Attribute

I would add that moving all weird abilities to Power guts the Will characteristic's skill benefits.
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Old 07-10-2020, 08:58 AM   #17
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Default Re: Magic Attribute

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I would add that moving all weird abilities to Power guts the Will characteristic's skill benefits.
Which is probably fine. Will is rather underpriced. "Resists Fright Checks and half of all stuff, mundane included" is a huge purview. As Alternate Attributes notes, Will is probably more fairly worth 10-14 points/level unless you pull out the supernatural stuff.

In the rules as written, you get silliness like high-IQ wizards also having high Will, and as a result stumbling around at 0 FP or less by making easy Will rolls . . . which encourages them to blow all their FP and even go negative. It's the brainy-wizard version of warriors stumbling around at negative HP because they have huge HT. In campaigns where a Magic or Power attribute even makes sense, that alone makes Will worth the price of admission, and the resistance to Influence skills, Fright Checks, etc. is just cake.
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Old 07-10-2020, 11:39 AM   #18
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Default Re: Magic Attribute

A general Power Attribute would not be a bad interpretation of the above. In the case of the Power Attribute, it would be used to defend against, learn, resist, sense, and use any supernatural abilities. Each type of supernatural power would have a 5 CP advantage associated with buying in (such as Magery 0+) and an associated talent (such as Magery 1+) that would assist in defending against, learning, resisting, sense, and using a specific type of supernatural power. Adding cinematic skills, extra effort, and supernatural advantages would make it even worthwhile for every character to develop. In that case, you remove the supernatural utility of DX, IQ, HT, Per, and Will and place them in Power.

As for Power Points (PP), it may be worthwhile to treat them like FP. PP would recover at 1 PP per 10 minutes of rest (for the purpose of recovering PP, Meditation would serve the same function as Breath Control does for the purpose of recovering FP). At 1/3 PP, characters would halve their effective Power (rounded down) for all purposes except for calculating Power Points, meaning that a drained character becomes much more vulnerable to supernatural abilities and much less capable using their own supernatural abilities. At 0 PP, characters would risk going unconscious, would have to make a Will roll to do anything, and would suffer 1 HP of damage every further PP lost. At -1 x PP, characters would automatically go unconscious and would suffer 1 HP of damage every further PP lost.

Coincidentally, PP would map to HP pretty closely. Maximum possible PP lost would be 6 x Power would maximum possible HP lost would be 6 x HP. Since even an average person would have 30 PP, they would be risking death before getting to -1 * PP (as they would have suffered 30 HP of damage in the process).
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Old 07-10-2020, 09:45 PM   #19
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Default Re: Magic Attribute

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
RPM spell costs are radically different from Magic's. They might both use "energy points for magic", but they're not on the same scale, and while RPM reuses the name "Magery", the rules are careful to point out that it's not the same as the Advantage of the same name in Basic. (See the "Mixing Magic" section on RPM 45.)
The only issue is that it states "Regardless, standard Magery and Magery (Ritual Path) do not interact in any way." But what about non-standard Magery ie Magery with enchantments and/or limitations?

Heck, you can built a divine form of magery that doesn't interact in any way with standard Magery: Magery (Sanctity Replaces Mana [0], No Spell Prerequisites: (+30%)

It certainly doesn't that there is Magery (Ritual Magic) and Magery (Path/Book) which do interact and behave like standard magery.

Why didn't they just bring back the old Magic Power advantage from 1e supers with a Magery like point cost (or leave it at the old 40/level)? Or better yet just use limitations and enchantments and come up with this version?
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Old 07-11-2020, 05:27 AM   #20
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Default Re: Magic Attribute

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The only issue is that it states "Regardless, standard Magery and Magery (Ritual Path) do not interact in any way." But what about non-standard Magery ie Magery with enchantments and/or limitations?
I expect that's meant to count as "standard" Magery. I think the point of that line is that -- despite the name -- RPM-Magery is not the same Advantage as Basic-Magery, and that the benefits of one should not be assumed to be provided by the other form. There's a "Mixing Magic Systems" box in the book that goes into a little more detail on how to have standard Magic and RPM coexist in the same game, if you're so inclined. The gist is imply that it's two different systems.

In hindsight, they probably should have just made up a different name just for that clarity, despite all the similarity in purpose and character build role of the two Advantages.
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