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Old 06-20-2020, 07:58 AM   #21
NineDaysDead
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Default Re: Steve Jackson Games' GURPS 2020 PDF Challenge

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Originally Posted by philreed View Post
Which is a lot of why we are seeing more and more 10-day-or-so campaigns. That leaves less of the "someone put me out of my misery" time.
Couldn't a lot of the potential market could simply miss a 10-day kickstarter and not be aware of it until it was finished?
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:05 AM   #22
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Couldn't a lot of the potential market could simply miss a 10-day kickstarter and not be aware of it until it was finished?
One advantage of PDFs as the Kickstarter product is that SJG can easily continue to produce them after the KS closes. Physical products are often one-and-done, never to be seen again if you miss it. It's not easy to have factories make just a few more for any stragglers. PDFs, though, will probably just go up on W23 (maybe at a higher price, and almost certainly missing incentive goodies from the KS).

So missing a short electronic product KS isn't as painful as missing a physical product one.
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:11 AM   #23
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Default Re: Steve Jackson Games' GURPS 2020 PDF Challenge

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
One advantage of PDFs as the Kickstarter product is that SJG can easily continue to produce them after the KS closes. Physical products are often one-and-done, never to be seen again if you miss it. It's not easy to have factories make just a few more for any stragglers. PDFs, though, will probably just go up on W23 (maybe at a higher price, and almost certainly missing incentive goodies from the KS).

So missing a short electronic product KS isn't as painful as missing a physical product one.
I meant from the point of view of getting as much money as possible from the Kickstarter.
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:24 AM   #24
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Default Re: Steve Jackson Games' GURPS 2020 PDF Challenge

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Couldn't a lot of the potential market could simply miss a 10-day kickstarter and not be aware of it until it was finished?
The ability to pledge late during the "Backerkit" phase avoids a lot of this, since folks can come in and get things.

Effectively, "Kickstarters" can wind up being anywhere from three to five weeks longer than the actual campaign anyway, because there's a two-week bridge where KS still has your money, but you can - if you're nimble - port over the backer info into Backerkit and start the shipping/add-on/pledge manager phase. You can certainly do more promotion during that two week period: "The Pre-Order phase for [Campaign Name] starts in a week! You can get all the stuff there!" and then effectively re-start your campaign with new enthusiasm as you gather the pledge info/addresses from the first group.

My experience is less than SJGs, but it does match them. Once you have established a following and market reach, the middle "doldrums" period of a Kickstarter is just something to be avoided.

For ME as a smaller company, that middle period does occasionally bring in some new faces, but mostly it doesn't. SJG, being even MORE established, probably doesn't see much new customer growth during that period, but obviously I'm speculating.

In any case: once you hit a certain number of folks from an outreach perspective, a short "actual" campaign phase doesn't seem to accomplish much so long as you fund.

more anecdote: My TFT campaign did $19,500 in the first five days, and $6700 in the last five. That was enough to fund it. The middle bit was about $6,000. . . in a 26 day campaign. That's 16 days of "you know you funded, you can start production confidently, and attract late-comers with previews of work in progress and art as they roll in."

So not nothing, but if I were confident in reaching those same folks during the Backerkit phase, I'd STILL have a month to reach them, but I'd be 2-4 weeks farther along in the production process.

In short: I believe the more established you are, the less you have to gain from a long campaign. We'll see if my belief holds true.
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:26 AM   #25
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Default Re: Steve Jackson Games' GURPS 2020 PDF Challenge

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Physical products are often one-and-done, never to be seen again if you miss it. It's not easy to have factories make just a few more for any stragglers.
I do note that Phil's happy discovery of Mixam - at least for short works - takes the sting out of some of that for shorter books. Their setup costs are very, very low, which has changed how I offer and buy my own print products of less than about 48 pages (where things are stapled not perfect bound or, even better, sewn).
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:40 AM   #26
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Default Re: Steve Jackson Games' GURPS 2020 PDF Challenge

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
The ability to pledge late during the "Backerkit" phase avoids a lot of this, since folks can come in and get things.

Effectively, "Kickstarters" can wind up being anywhere from three to five weeks longer than the actual campaign anyway, because there's a two-week bridge where KS still has your money, but you can - if you're nimble - port over the backer info into Backerkit and start the shipping/add-on/pledge manager phase. You can certainly do more promotion during that two week period: "The Pre-Order phase for [Campaign Name] starts in a week! You can get all the stuff there!" and then effectively re-start your campaign with new enthusiasm as you gather the pledge info/addresses from the first group.

My experience is less than SJGs, but it does match them. Once you have established a following and market reach, the middle "doldrums" period of a Kickstarter is just something to be avoided.

For ME as a smaller company, that middle period does occasionally bring in some new faces, but mostly it doesn't. SJG, being even MORE established, probably doesn't see much new customer growth during that period, but obviously I'm speculating.

In any case: once you hit a certain number of folks from an outreach perspective, a short "actual" campaign phase doesn't seem to accomplish much so long as you fund.

more anecdote: My TFT campaign did $19,500 in the first five days, and $6700 in the last five. That was enough to fund it. The middle bit was about $6,000. . . in a 26 day campaign. That's 16 days of "you know you funded, you can start production confidently, and attract late-comers with previews of work in progress and art as they roll in."

So not nothing, but if I were confident in reaching those same folks during the Backerkit phase, I'd STILL have a month to reach them, but I'd be 2-4 weeks farther along in the production process.

In short: I believe the more established you are, the less you have to gain from a long campaign. We'll see if my belief holds true.
Fair enough. Experience trumps speculation.
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:01 AM   #27
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Default Re: Steve Jackson Games' GURPS 2020 PDF Challenge

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Couldn't a lot of the potential market could simply miss a 10-day kickstarter and not be aware of it until it was finished?
It's a trade. In my personal experience, running a long project does not bring in enough more backers to cover the added stress.

Example: Car Wars Sixth Edition ran for about 38 days. We still, to this day, get "I missed it!" messages from people.

Shorter campaigns are better for creators, because no length of campaign beyond a week or two will drive enough new supporters to make it worth the added stress and frustration.
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:02 AM   #28
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Default Re: Steve Jackson Games' GURPS 2020 PDF Challenge

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I meant from the point of view of getting as much money as possible from the Kickstarter.
If they want to take advantage of the Kickstarter offer, then they need to support the Kickstarter campaign. Backers, in my opinion, should get a great deal since it is their support that makes the project succeed.

I've personally run dozens of campaigns, and have been involved in well over 60 in various capacities, and trying to "keep it open longer!" never works out. It is always a nightmare.
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:08 AM   #29
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Default Re: Steve Jackson Games' GURPS 2020 PDF Challenge

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The ability to pledge late during the "Backerkit" phase avoids a lot of this, since folks can come in and get things.
On top of that, Kickstarter's preview/follow tool that can be used before the project also adds to the length of the overall experience for the creator.

Example: This page -- https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...-pdf-challenge -- opened on June 18th. The campaign is set to launch in July. That's a few weeks of dealing with questions while promoting the link.

Also, before we learned the "deadline for surveys!" trick, projects were a near-infinite experience for creators. This last week alone we had backers complete their survey for Munchkin Shakespeare . . . and project that closed on March 10, 2017, which we also call "over three years ago."
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:08 AM   #30
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Default Re: Steve Jackson Games' GURPS 2020 PDF Challenge

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If they want to take advantage of the Kickstarter offer, then they need to support the Kickstarter campaign.
Which is only possible if they don't miss it. And as you pointed out, you're still, to this day, getting "I missed it!" messages from people.
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