How lethal is a master?

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

So, I was wondering how lethal a master fighter would be in your games? For example, let us look at the following 250 point swordmaster:

Attributes: ST 12 [20]; DX 14 [80]; IQ 12 [40]; HT 14 [40]

Advantages: Ambidexterity [5]; Combat Reflexes [15]; Fit [5]; High Pain Threshold [10]; Night Vision 5 [5]

Disadvantages: Berserk (12) [-10]; Code of Honor (Soldier's) [-10]; Enemy (Rival Mercenary Band, Hunter, 6-) [-10]; Insomniac (Severe) [-15]; Sense of Duty (Companions) [-5]

Skills: Bow (A) DX [2]-14; Brawling (E) DX+2 [4]-16; Broadsword (A) DX+10 [40]-24; Fast-Draw (Arrow) (E) DX+2 [1]-16; Fast-Draw (Sword) (E) DX+2 [1]-16; Shield (E) DX+2 [4]-16; Shortsword (A) DX+10 [8]-24.

The remaining 20 character points would be for customization. So, how would such a character fair as an ally or an opponent in your games?

In many of my games he'd likely get shot.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

I'm not a fan of Unusual Background. It's a tax on an ability because the GM want's to charge more for something, not an ability in and of itself.

I think you're right in that many people often use it that way, and speak of it as such on the forum. But I don't think that's how it's meant to be used. RAW uses UB to account for the advantages that simply being unusual gives you.

The classic example of being the only mage in the modern world. Banks don't have anti-magic defenses, cops won't think of magic as a possible explanation for a crime, the CSIs don't test for it, etc. There's an otherwise unnamed ability to avoid detection and penetrate often non-existent defenses that you don't have in a setting where mages are known, acknowledged, or even common. UB pays for that -- which is "an ability in and of itself", at least when comparing across settings.

And that should be it. UB is too often misused as a tax simply for notional setting "rarity", an attempt to make party demographics somehow reflect the global demographics of the setting. But heroes are generally rare in any genre (If they were common, they wouldn't be heroic. You can have stories about ordinary people succeeding despite the odds, or failing despite their best efforts -- but none of those call for UB, either.) And often the special outliers, not typical stereotypical exemplars of cultures. (Legolas and Gimli would be classic counter-examples. They're stereotypes precisely because they're in in the Fellowship to represent those races while Tolkien is having them wander around to give you a tour of Middle-Earth in the guise of having an adventure.) The percentage of people that are mages or supers has nothing to do with charging UB. There's not a good way to put your thumb on that scale. Rarity only matters when it becomes so rare that you start gaining those advantages of never-would-have-thought-of-that from the unsuspecting world.

The other popular misuse is to adjust prices when the GM thinks they're off. He'll be thinking, or posting, something along the lines of "X is too powerful, so I charge 10 points of UB to have it". But the right answer there is simply to change the cost of the powerful ability. GMs can do that directly. They don't need a special label for "I changed the rules to fit my setting / my houserules". That kind of tweaking happens all the time; it's not "unusual" in the slightest. (Even with automated tools like GCA, if you want a separate label, just make up a custom advantage, rather than repurposing UB.)

[AlexanderHowl]

I have to agree about UB. Unless an ability is truly unusual for the campaign or the setting, I do not require a UB. For example, I would charge a 25 CP UB for a character to have TBAM or WM in a non-cinematic campaign or a 50 CP UB for a character to have abilities in a non-powered campaign.

[Glimmerman]

He maybe wouldn't have survived for so long without Luck, Danger Sense and/or better Perception - or good allies watching his back against sniper.

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

He stabs one guy in the eyes, and dies to a volley of fire from the police who have been called in to deal with a psychopath waving around a sword.

Most of those of us responding don't play in games where a one-trick sword pony would be terribly useful.

And ChaosCoyote points out that it's impossible to parry a charging Triceratops.

...

Or, you're in a setting/game where melee just isn't relevant.

"There can be only one!"
*Fires RPG to the face.*
"Word."

In fairness, the OP did say in a later post the guy could be Guns: Pistol 24 & Guns: Rifle 24 instead, depending on the setting.

Although I will add "reanimated triceratops" to the ways my necromancer could defeat him.

[rant]
I'm not a fan of Unusual Background. It's a tax on an ability because the GM want's to charge more for something, not an ability in and of itself. Making him spend, say 10 points, on unusual background for his broadsword skill means you're really charging him 50 points for it, instead of 40. Unusual background is one of those "advantages" that I strongly dislike because it costs you points and you don't actually get anything for it.

I despise the idea that, in a world where supers exist, they are charged an unusual background, but a super-normal, who operates at their levels, isn't. That seems backward.

To me, an unusual background is just a way to justify a lower starting point total for some characters, reducing their potential for other abilities.
[/rant]

On this note, UB is not the issue of the guy having Broadsword 24, but the issue of nobody else having Broadsword (or other weapon skill) 24. It is being a skill 24 guy in a world where a "master swordsman" is skill 16-17 in their chosen sword.

So SwordMaster would get a lot of benefit from UB.

1 - Knowing other people in the setting aren't going to be on the same skill level, barring very special and unlikely circumstances.

2 - We've mentioned how easy it is for prepared foes to defeat this guy... Unusual Background means his foes will not be prepared for him, because as far as they know, people with skills that high don't exist.

2a - Knights have no way of knowing he's good enough to casually stab them through the eye-slit of their helmet until after he does it.

2b - Town watchmen will have no idea that he can take on a dozen of them in melee, so they won't know just how important it is for them to avoid melee and shoot him with crossbows/muskets.

Without his UB, the world would be trying very hard to make sure he never gets into a position to use his Broadsword skill.

[AlexanderHowl]

How would anyone know about them unless they have a reputation or other relevant trait? Their enemies may be prepared, but they will not necessarily share that information with other people out of embarrassment, honor, etc. Unless they brag about their skill or go out of their way to identify themselves, who is to know that they are facing a master?

When you think about it, how can an outside observer differentiate between luck, skill, or specialization unless they observe an individual for a prolonged period? A swordsman stabs a knight in the visor, is it luck, skill, or specialization? They could just be good and specialized (skill 15 become an effective skill 5 due to the penalty, but targeted attack could reduce the penalty by five, meaning that their effective skill is 10) or just good and lucky (an effective skill of 5 still gives them a 5% of succeeding). There is nothing to suggest a skill 24 unless the individual consistently stabs people in the eyes.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

How would anyone know about them unless they have a reputation or other relevant trait? Their enemies may be prepared, but they will not necessarily share that information with other people out of embarrassment, honor, etc. Unless they brag about their skill or go out of their way to identify themselves, who is to know that they are facing a master?

Well, if they disguise their true skill, they're not really using it, and thus only have the potential to be lethal. As a demonstration, lets look my campaign Banestorm:Atlante

In the surrounding area, the sword master would be almost unparalleled in battle. No one would have anywhere near the skill he has. He'd be able to cut his way through an army. And he would probably end up doing exactly that, one way or another. We've had lots of pitched battles. There, either he can choose not to effect the course of the battles, or he can end up a true war hero, receiving glory, material reward, and saving lives.

There would be foes where he wouldn't be useful, such as dinosaurs (too much DR) or flying foes (which includes one faction, but also dragons and rocs).

Once he becomes a war hero, he starts getting treated more like a mcguffin than a character. In a protracted war, he has to be protected extensively from enemy indirect attack. He's most likely to die from concentrated magic blaster fire, ranged foes bombarding him, or a doppelganger assassin. I'm not sure what the elvish response to him would be. Probably, they'd just run away and stay out of range while pelting him with arrows. so that's a slight win for the elves.

Yes, I'm throwing armies/state assasins against him. That's the level that bane-storm atlante is played on. And in the game, he'd be a powerful piece, not a player. He'd be able to make a few major moves, and then organizations would react and incorporate him into their system.

In Lost in Dreams, He'd be very deadly in half the worlds, and useless in the other half, because half use swords, and half use guns, and world-travel leaves you naked. But when he shined, he'd really shine. Of course, mind control, flying creatures, and so forth occasionally show up in Lost in Dreams. And combat is rare.

In Monster Hunters: Vegas he would not be particuarly lethal: the game uses swords and guns, and 500-600 point PC's. I've even seen low 20's sword and gun skills in that game.

In Towers Intangible, he'd lack the technology skills to maintain the visibility he needed, and to use the armor and drones you need to stay alive. The game involves armored robots shooting each other with grenade launchers at indoor ranges.

[Gnome]

In my current 600+ DF game he would be meat--a typical battle might feature 20+ guys like this as fodder (and usually with a few more special abilities, undead features, etc.), only there as a kind of background noise to slow the PCs down slightly in the real challenge: killing the boss, completing the exorcism, etc.

When the campaign started (130 points) he would have been a serious adversary, capable of threatening the entire party. They probably could have defeated him thanks to magic spells, ranged attacks, etc., but it would have been scary.
In fact, the party once faced a "swordmaster" type with skill 24 (but also extra attacks and natural DR due to being a Coleopteran, a small army of skeletons that fought at his side, and a powerful sidekick). That tough fight resulted in the unlucky death of one party member.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Railstar

In fairness, the OP did say in a later post the guy could be Guns: Pistol 24 & Guns: Rifle 24 instead, depending on the setting.

Range penalties make these nowhere near as useful as a Broadsword-24. At 20 yds, he's at an 18. While many of my supers take "Long-Range" on their attacks to remove range penalties out to 200 yds.

Originally Posted by Railstar

Although I will add "reanimated triceratops" to the ways my necromancer could defeat him.

Word.

Originally Posted by Railstar

On this note, UB is not the issue of the guy having Broadsword 24, but the issue of nobody else having Broadsword (or other weapon skill) 24. It is being a skill 24 guy in a world where a "master swordsman" is skill 16-17 in their chosen sword.

However, this is not something inherent in Unusual Background. Nothing is preventing anyone else from spending 40 points to purchase a skill. If you're the only mage in the world, then yes, Magery is worth more. But, Unusual background does not provide niche protection. Just because you forced him to buy UB, doesn't mean that someone else is prevented from spending the points on their skill.

Originally Posted by Railstar

So SwordMaster would get a lot of benefit from UB.

1 - Knowing other people in the setting aren't going to be on the same skill level, barring very special and unlikely circumstances.

This has nothing to do with UB. This has to do that I can come up with a better use for 40 points.

Originally Posted by Railstar

2 - We've mentioned how easy it is for prepared foes to defeat this guy... Unusual Background means his foes will not be prepared for him, because as far as they know, people with skills that high don't exist.

Why don't they know? How would the average person be able to tell the difference between a Skill 16 swordsman and a skill 24 swordsman? UB doesn't give him anything for this.

You're confusing Reputation and Unusual Background.

Originally Posted by Railstar

2a - Knights have no way of knowing he's good enough to casually stab them through the eye-slit of their helmet until after he does it.

Then, like anything else, word will spread and his UB is just a tax on his abilities. He'll gain a reputation and his UB will just be a hefty fine for wanting to be good at something.

Originally Posted by Railstar

2b - Town watchmen will have no idea that he can take on a dozen of them in melee, so they won't know just how important it is for them to avoid melee and shoot him with crossbows/muskets.

Then they're awful at their job and deserve this. They should approach him while covering him with ranged weapons. He kills one of them then gets put down like a rabid dog.

Again, this has nothing to do with Unusual Background and everything to do with reputation.

Originally Posted by Railstar

Without his UB, the world would be trying very hard to make sure he never gets into a position to use his Broadsword skill.

Again UB is not reputation. Just because he doesn't have a UB doesn't mean that people automatically know what he can do. A UB is just a tax. It doesn't give him anything. ALL it does is reduce the number of points he can spend on other abilities.

All of your examples are better emulated with Reputation or Social Regard. None of that is the realm of Unusual Background.

[Varyon]

Looking at my work-in-progress DF testbed characters (who are nominally built on 350 points)...

Corwin, the Feuyaner knight, would have a tough time but I suspect would emerge victorious. He's a good deal stronger (ST 16) and more resilient (innate DR, IT:DR*, Regeneration), and can readily strike his foe with a shield bash, a sword swing/thust, and a tail strike (using a weapon attached to the tail that has a crushing head on one end and an impaling spike on the other) in a single round, typically reducing Sword McSwordy's Parry against the third attack to a mere 8 (10 with a medium shield), and that's before accounting for Deceptive/Setup Attacks. His armor etc would probably absorb most of a torso or similar strike, his HPT would let him ignore the shock, and his Broadsword-20, CR, and Large Shield means he has Parry-17, so the eye trick isn't going to work. If Corwin gets unlucky and loses his sword somehow, he actually has a backup stored in his arm (which could also be used for a surprise attack if things get dicey - it functions like one of the arm blades of the Mortal Kombat character Baraka). In addition to his multiweapon attack, he also has a few targeted attacks (sword thrust/vitals and axe swing/neck) that can give his target a rather bad day. A berserking target is likely to end up run through by a sword and with a broken neck from a mace blow.

*An arguably-unfair advantage he has is that, if a foe's weapon doesn't do more than twice the DR of his armor in damage, it gets converted to Crushing as per LT, and his IT:DR is in fact against Crushing damage

Kate, the Feuyaner sorta-ninja, would do well if the fight isn't on a featureless plain, but would struggle and may ultimately lose if it is. She has a Chi Blast that can strike from up to 30 yards away (and is Guided and uses her Karate-18 to hit) for decent damage or rather significant knockback (it has Double Knockback, and her Mr Pushy Perk means she can sacrifice the damage to double it again). She's also got some serious stealth abilities that will make it difficult for him to find her. In melee, her body itself is a weapon - she has some rather large and nasty claws, a built-in tail scythe, and Trained by a Master, allowing her unarmed strikes to function as though armed (think I stole that idea from Toadkiller Dog). She also has a decent level of Tech!, allowing her to improvise for targeted attacks or other techniques as the situation calls. She also knows how to use poisons, which could make things rather bad for McSwordy. She's not as resilient and has poorer defenses than her husband, however, so she'd have to be rather vicious in close range. Fortunately, with the ability to claw, bite, and strike with her tail multiple times in one second, she has a decent chance of overwhelming her opponent's defenses. A berserking target would probably have his heart torn out and/or his head removed from his shoulders.

Grom, the Lizardman rifleman, would either drop him at range or likely die in melee, although he is pretty good at using his rifle as a spear. If his ranged attack doesn't kill McSwordy but manages to Berserk him, Grom will win easily - his bayonet has a crossguard, so he just needs to let McSwordy run himself through with a stop thrust, then hold him at bay until he fails his consciousness check and passes out.

Jill, the (mostly) human necromancer, isn't as well-defined as the others, but would most likely die. She's stronger than her opponent when wearing her zombie powered armor, but she's not a frontline combatant. She might be able to stay alive by using her draining attack (a necromantic ray that harms the target while healing herself) if she's lucky, but he's got a good chance of dropping her in one hit. If she has some zombie fodder she'll have a better chance, but she tends not to have mobile zombies following her around (most of her "zombies" are more like objects, such as her armor or cloak, or are temporary creations raised from slain enemies to help take out their allies).

Against the whole party, of course, he'd be turned into mincemeat in rather short order.