Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

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Alright, I got it clear! Thanks for the light of your wisdom.

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[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

I'm not sure I'd allow combining a slam with a normal melee attack in the first place, but I suppose someone might undertake some esoteric training to learn to stab someone with a dagger while tackling them while also not falling on their own blade. (Maybe that calls for a Special Exercises Perk.) I'd still apply the Move and Attack penalties to the regular weapon attack.

The OP mentions a shield slam, and I'd certainly allow shield slam plus one-hand weapon as a Dual-Weapon Attack. That's a pretty classic combo, really.

[AlexanderHowl]

Well, it is a classic in fantasy literature, I am not sure how applicable it was in real life. The entire point of a shield is to block, so using it as a weapon is usually a suboptimal situation. Then again, using a slam during a combat except against a fleeing and/or outnumbered opponent is usually a suboptimal situation.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Well, it is a classic in fantasy literature, I am not sure how applicable it was in real life. The entire point of a shield is to block, so using it as a weapon is usually a suboptimal situation. Then again, using a slam during a combat except against a fleeing and/or outnumbered opponent is usually a suboptimal situation.

Nah, shields where used plenty as offensive weapons. Both for hitting and slamming. Even DWA, possibly using the shield-part as a beat of feint.

It's more the Move and Attack part that tend to be very unwise.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Rupert

The OP mentions a shield slam, and I'd certainly allow shield slam plus one-hand weapon as a Dual-Weapon Attack. That's a pretty classic combo, really.

yep, and I think it very much works with the idea of a simultaneous defence penalty (you can use shield to hide a lot of stuff behind)

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Well, it is a classic in fantasy literature, I am not sure how applicable it was in real life. The entire point of a shield is to block, so using it as a weapon is usually a suboptimal situation. Then again, using a slam during a combat except against a fleeing and/or outnumbered opponent is usually a suboptimal situation.

In RL shields can be pretty offensive as well!

I mean yeah OK I'd rather get clouted by a shield rim, than stabbed through the chest by a sword. But you can get some serious damage with some shields.

In GURPS it allows for some nice tactics as well. Move & attack becomes viable which has knock on effects for distance, parries are more chancy

In terms of actual damage a nice shield rush might not kill or knock your target out by itself, but with roughly equal combatants with HPs in the 10-15 & Mv 5-7 that +DB to the attacker damage roll seriously increases the chances of the target getting automatically knocked down. Being prone with an unready weapon isn't good.


They work well as set up attacks as well

[AlexanderHowl]

The problem comes if the defender is waiting for a charge. Since your only legal options for a defense against a stop thrust is a block or a dodge, and since you cannot block and attack with a shield during the same turn, you are limited to your dodge, which is probably penalized by encumbrance. This even applies to using two weapons, as you cannot parry during a move-and-attack.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Maz

Nah, shields where used plenty as offensive weapons. Both for hitting and slamming. Even DWA, possibly using the shield-part as a beat of feint.

For what it's worth, in the viking-style martial art I'm learning (and teaching), we consider the shield the primary weapon. It's the sword or axe that does the actual killing, most of the time, but the openings are provided by movement and shield use first, using the sword to force the foe to over-commit, or to manipulate the other guy's shield to make an opening, and as a defensive tool second, and then to strike the fight-ending blow last. YMMV based on style, but the shield really is core to styles that use it, and provides even more protection than I ever thought.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Rupert

The OP mentions a shield slam, and I'd certainly allow shield slam plus one-hand weapon as a Dual-Weapon Attack. That's a pretty classic combo, really.

Depends on your definition of shield "slam", "rush", and "bash". You can punch someone with a shield -- it's a really heavy fist load, or perhaps a heavy sort of club. Or you could body-check someone at speed, and just use the shield to take the impact. The GURPS rule for "shield rush" (B406) points to the slam rules on, so "rush" would seem to be the latter. "Slam" isn't a term of art in the rules, but pretty clearly suggests slamming with shield equipped, not just hitting someone with it.

Hurling yourself bodily at the enemy, NFL tackles or NHL body-checks isn't a really common combat tactic as far as I know (though I'm sure someone was desperate enough to try it at various times throughout history). Standing in place (plus or minus footwork) and bashing with the shield, sure. The rules for that are the "shield bash" defined on B406 and with stats found on the equipment tables on B273 (thr cr damage), no slamming involved. I'd have no objection to combining a shield bash with another weapon in a DWA. This use is just another off-hand weapon.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The problem comes if the defender is waiting for a charge. Since your only legal options for a defense against a stop thrust is a block or a dodge, and since you cannot block and attack with a shield during the same turn, you are limited to your dodge, which is probably penalized by encumbrance. This even applies to using two weapons, as you cannot parry during a move-and-attack.

Where does it say you can't block and attack with a shield in the same turn? I can't find that anywhere - shields aren't listed as unbalanced, and it wouldn't matter if they were, because you don't parry with them anyway.

[Plane]

Based on how successfully doing an armed Parry against unarmed attacks gives a free attack against the attacking limb, perhaps Shields should get a free Bash (or even a Beat?) against the attacking limb any time they successfully block? That would help in keeping them realistically competitive with the parrying weapons.

Something like Weapon Master for shields (to reduce the cumulative -5 for multiple blocks in a turn like how you can reduce the cumulative -4 for parries) would also help narrow the gap.