Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-18-2019, 02:47 PM   #11
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: Combat Modifiers and AdjDX

This is a fun discussion. I have played it both ways regarding thrown weapons and facing bonuses. This has given me pause.

With regards to the OP and regarding if bonuses & penalties (except Missile and Thrown) affect the order of attack, I say definitely. If your target has his back to you not only is it easier, but having no defense to prevent your attack allows you to attack sooner. By the same token, if you have a -2 or -3 DX due to injuries, you are not responding as quickly. And the rules backs this up. I can think of two places off the top of my head: first by the inverse of the statement the OP mentions (that is, the rules specifically states the missile & thrown modifiers do not apply which implies the rest do). Second the Sweeping attack rules states all attacks are made at the lowest of adjusted DX (ITL 126). Clearly this shows the targets affects on the attacker's DX adjusts also affects attack order.

"Roll separately for each target figure, at the time of the lowest adjDX applicable to any of them."
Axly Suregrip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2019, 09:40 PM   #12
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: Combat Modifiers and AdjDX

I know this is off topic from the OP but we did run down this tangent. Here is all the evidence for believing Facing does affect thrown weapon attacks:

A) Missile weapons section specifically mentions not getting a facing bonus while the Thrown weapons section does not. Further more the Thrown weapons section states it is exactly like a regular attack except for the DX adjustment for range.

In ITL:

p 114 Thrown Weapons section "A thrown-weapon attack is treated exactly like a regular attack, but there is a DX adjustment of..."

p 115 Missile Weapon section "Missile weapons never get a bonus for the target’s facing."

p 114 Thrown Weapons section do NOT contain a statement



B) Missile and Thrown attacks or weapons are always both mentioned. Here is a list of every place it mentions both. That is, they do not mention only Missile weapons/attack to every mean both:

p 20 Dispel Missiles spell "Dispels any missile spells (or missile or thrown weapons)..."

p 20 ditto for the Turn Missiles spell

p 23 ditto for the Reverse Missiles spell

p 25 Flight spell "-4 for attacks with physical thrown or missile weapons"

p 63 mutilation "reduce your DX by 4 for thrown and missile weapons"

p 92 against Dragonets "DX -8 for missile or thrown weapon attack."

p 102 Force Retreats "Magical attackes, missile and thrown weapons, etc., do not allow you to force a retreat."

p 104 Flight "Missile/thrown weapon/missile spell fire at targets overhead..."

p 107 near top "There are several different types of physical attack: regular, thrown-weapon, missile-weapon, hand-to-hand, jabbing with a pole weapon"

p 107 Rolling for Hit section "Attacks occur in order of adjDX counting everything but missile and thrown weapon range;"

p 115 Missile Weapons section "The DX adjustments for missile and thrown weapon distance are not considered when determining which figure attacks first."

p 116 Hitting Your Friends section mentions both.

p 116 Oversized Targets mentions both twice.

p 116 Sheltering behind bodies affects "missile/thrown attack" and "any figure making a missile or thrown weapon attack" mentions both twice

p 117 Attacking into HTH "If a missile or thrown weapon is aimed at a pile of figures…"

p 117 Defending and Dodging section, "Dodging in effective only against missile spells (and thrown and missile weapons)."

p 119 Height section mentions both

p 119 Darkness section mentions both

p 120 Aimed Shots section mentions both

p 131 Mounted Combat Attacks section mentions both; twice

p 137 Images and Illusions section - mentions both

p 138 Disbelief by Animals section about images/illusions not using both missile or thrown weapons

p 139 ditto about illusions again. Both mentioned


C) Another place Missile weapons are mentioned without thrown weapons is the Missile Weapon attack option. Move only 1 space and fire the missile weapon. If you believe mentioning Missile weapons alone is the same as both missile and thrown weapon attacks, then is this how you handle Thrown weapon attacks? Does this mean you do not allow Thrown weapons from engage figures?


D) Death Test in the Hobgoblin room they like the engage one foe and throw at another foe. So clearly Thrown weapons are not handled by the "Missile Weapon Attack" option. But why would the hobgoblins throw at another foe? Why get the DX penalty when they have a foe near by? I always played them splitting up to get your team surrounded so they could throw into the backs of others. I know this is just speculation.
Axly Suregrip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2019, 10:28 PM   #13
Tom H.
 
Tom H.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Central Texas, north of Austin
Default Re: Combat Modifiers and AdjDX

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
p 107 near top "There are several different types of physical attack: regular, thrown-weapon, missile-weapon, hand-to-hand, jabbing with a pole weapon"
This one stands out as an important categorization to me.

It looks to fit within the broader categorization that divides attacks at the highest level into magical and physical (see In the Labyrinth, p. 106).

By the way, great indexing and research skills there!

I'm fairly new to The Fantasy Trip and am a bit surprised how it is promoted as an "easy" game considering all the nuance for discussion. I can definitely see the processes that would evolve into the detail of GURPS.

Last edited by Tom H.; 04-18-2019 at 10:29 PM. Reason: Formatting
Tom H. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2019, 11:39 PM   #14
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Combat Modifiers and AdjDX

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
Rather than the Facing section [ITL 106], see Missile Weapons [ITL 115]: "Missile weapons never get a bonus for the target’s facing."

I assume a thrown weapon counts as a "missile" too, not just arrows and bolts…?
Yes, that was always our reasoning. It didn't make much sense to us that the intention would be otherwise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
That seems like a 'Careful Aiming' kinda thing, which ought to apply regardless of facing, so long as the target's not moving. (A soldier standing guard, for example, and you need to pick him off before approaching the gate.)
Yes, it would apply regardless of facing. But if they're facing the other way, they're less likely to notice you aiming at them and stop standing there.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2019, 03:46 PM   #15
Oneiros
 
Oneiros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Combat Modifiers and AdjDX

Regarding facing affecting turn order (page 107):
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITL
During the action phase of the turn, figures act in order of their adjusted DX, with the highest adjusted DX going first. DX is affected by many things, including the position of the enemy you are attacking . . . so in a given position, a figure might have an adjusted DX of 8 if striking at one foe, 10 if it attacked another instead, and 12 at yet another!
Seems pretty clear that it does.

However, for Missile/Thrown weapons: while distance doesn't affect turn order, what about other adjustments for those attackers? Target Cover? Blur spell?

[Tangent] That's one of the (few) things that bugs me about TFT. For an older "simpler" game, turn order is one of the fiddlier things with it. Everyone has to declare what they're doing to figure their adjDx before anyone does *anything*, even though things may change after just the first action (a foe is killed or goes prone, an Aid spell is cast), and everyone has to double check to see if their adjDex was affected. And when their turn to act does come up, they're probably going to calc their adjDex again, just to be sure.

I can tell you, that was a *huge* stumbling block for my players after nearly 20 years of simpler, cyclical initiative order in That Other Fantasy Game.

So, I've started to go with the approach outlined here, which simplifies turn order significantly:

https://tft.brainiac.com/pmwiki/pmwi....DXadjustments

Basically, only those things that physically alter your DX (Armor, Wounds, spells like Aid or Clumsiness) are taken into consideration for turn order. Facing, visibility, etc, don't factor in.

That eliminates the need to declare actions beforehand, and as GM, I can just ask "Okay, what are you going to do?" when a player's turn comes up (though it will often be obvious based on positioning.) adjDX for attacks only have to be figured once, at the moment of the actual attack, which is nice.

Last edited by Oneiros; 05-02-2019 at 03:50 PM.
Oneiros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2019, 04:26 PM   #16
FireHorse
 
FireHorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Dayton, Ohio
Default Re: Combat Modifiers and AdjDX

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiros View Post
I like that a lot. It makes much more sense.
FireHorse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2019, 05:55 PM   #17
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Combat Modifiers and AdjDX

Yep, that's how we played back in the day. Only the things that affected your DX for all purposes would slow you down, not things that are choices about how or whom you attack. That way, figures mostly usually had only one time to choose what to do, not half a dozen depending on whom they attacked, whether they aimed for the head, etc.

However we had some exceptions which we didn't write down. IIRC, Missile Weapons and Thrown Weaponsvtalents we let affect sequence, and also Sweeping Blows slowing down when it happened.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2019, 06:20 PM   #18
Helborn
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default Re: Combat Modifiers and AdjDX

One reason for including facing is to allow a lower DX individual to attack a higher DX individual before they can disengage - within reason. Obviously someone who has a significantly higher DX will still be able to act first.
__________________
Helborn
Helborn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 12:47 AM   #19
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
Default Re: Combat Modifiers and AdjDX

I my experience most of the clunkiness wears off after the first few battles -- after that, the positions and facings of everyone on the board pretty much dictates where exactly the AdjDX issues are going to be, and everyone recognizes them pretty easily.

Having said that, I do like the alternate rule on Brainiac, and it's probably easier all the way around...
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 07:14 PM   #20
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Combat Modifiers and AdjDX

I like it too, as it's the same logic we used... however we had some different conclusions about which adjustments made sense in which categories.

Having a thorough list for player & GM reference though is a great idea.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.